Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Madeline Montalban/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by 10:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC).

Madeline Montalban

 * Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it received GA status just over a month ago, and since then has seen a number of additions, making this as comprehensive as possible. I think that it meets all the FA criteria and although it is of an obscure and esoteric subject, I think that it would make a great addition to the FA family. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: An interesting choice of subject, indeed, but possibly underprepared from a FA perspective. I am not sure how much work has been done since the GA. Based on my reading of the lead, I have a number of prose concerns:
 * General: there is rather too many "ings": "immersing", "teaching", "coming", "associating" - all close together in the second paragraph. And more follow later. I also think the sentence beginning "Associating..." is far too long and convoluted, and needs splitting.
 * Third paragraph: "entering into a relationship and moving to Southsea in Essex, they founded the OMS..." To avoid the impression that they did these things simultaneously, you should precede the phrase with "after..."
 * Third paragraph: "they founded the OMS as a correspondence course in 1956, teaching subscribers their own magical rites through postal correspondence". The last three words are redundant - its a correspondence course. I would also recommend that "teaching" becomes "which taught", to avoid the "entering...moving...teaching sequence in a single sentence.
 * Third paragraph: "Settling into St Giles, London, she became known to the press as "The Witch of St. Giles", dying of lung cancer in 1982." There is a non sequitur there, but there other problems. Beginning sentences with participles rarely works well; also, people settle "in" districts rather than into them. A possible rewording; "She settled in the St Giles district, where she became known to the press as "The Witch of St. Giles". She died of lung cancer in 1982."
 * Final paragraph: Final sentence "Her life and work was mentioned in various occult texts and historical studies of esotericism during subsequent decades, with a short biography by Julia Philips being published by the Atlantis Bookshop in 2012." The "with" connector does not work well; I suggest: "Her life and work was mentioned in various occult texts and historical studies of esotericism during subsequent decades; a short biography by Julia Philips was published by the Atlantis Bookshop in 2012".

On sources, I have not carried out a full review, but I have doubts about the Sheridan Douglas Press. This seems to be part of a commercial organisation that designs and sells tarot cards, not a scholarly body. In what sense does this qualify as a high quality relable source? On a minor matter, ref 56 requires a page number.

Brianboulton (talk) 23:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tips Brian, I have crossed out those with I have dealt with. Regarding the sourcing,the Sheridan Douglas Press is the small publishing company owned by Montalban's official successors, thereby having a direct connection to her; while certainly not being a scholarly or academic source, I would argue that it is reliable enough for usage here,precisely for this reason. It is certainly not being used to support any controversial statements. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ("Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, break up, or add graphics to comments from other editors")—indopug (talk) 11:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, is that the case; my apologies! Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The strikes are still there. We should at least let Brian know so he can decide whether he thinks they should be struck. Personally, I feel it would be best if the strikes were removed for now. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 17:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and removed the strikes. Once again, my apologies. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: There still seem to be ISBN problems- the templates are automatically picking them up, now. Also, one of the Cauldron references is lacking page numbers. J Milburn (talk) 22:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comments from J Milburn
 * Updated the remaining dubious ISBNs. Both new numbers are valid and point to the correct Amazon books, should be OK. GermanJoe (talk) 12:30, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct year, as well? I'm just worried about throwing page cites off. Minor detail I know... J Milburn (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point, double-checked again (one was a few months off in 2000 instead 1999). Both ISBNs now point to the edition of the article's year of publication. GermanJoe (talk) 14:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

(Full disclosure: I am the GA reviewer.)

Sources: While some of these sources are less-than-academic, there are decent academic sources cited, which support the contention that she significant. The Douglas/Sheridan source should be used as sparingly as possible, but is potentially an acceptable primary source for uncontroversial information. The other publishers/authors seem to be respected within the community, but anything at all surprising from the more esoteric works should be treated with caution. Ultimately, this does have to be an article about a real person, and not shrouded in mystery. To that end, as with the GAC I'll be particularly critical of anything overly mysterious/making outlandish claims.

Images: The single non-free image is appropriate, with a careful rationale and solid sourcing.

General:
 * "Her father, Willie Royals, was an insurance agent of unknown parentage," Who his parents were doesn't really matter- drop the mention?
 * "a master tailor" Master?
 * "Although her accounts remained unreliable," Odd phrase- perhaps "Although her own accounts of the initial meeting are unreliable..."
 * I suspect London Life is notable, it's just that no one has gotten around to writing an article yet
 * "reader how to perform their own horoscopes" Do you "perform" horoscopes?
 * "She considered herself the reincarnation of King Richard III, and was a member of the Richard III Society; on one occasion, she visited the site of Richard's death at the Battle of Bosworth Field with fellow OMS members, wearing a suit of armour." The armour story sounds questionable. How certain are we about this?
 * "he would continue publishing astrological prophecies in Prediction and Prediction Annual until summer 2012." How about "he continued publishing astrological prophecies in Prediction and Prediction Annual until summer 2012." Also, is the summer 2012 date the date he stopped, or just the date the author happens to know up until?
 * "something she disapproved of, and their friendship subsequently "hit a stormy period and we went our own ways for several years."" How about "something she disapproved of, and their friendship subsequently "hit a stormy period" with the pair going "[their] own ways for several years.""?
 * "£10,000"- is that £10,000 then? If so, this is actually a bit more than it sounds.
 * "Montalban had a "mercurial personality" and could be kind of generous at one moment and fly into a violent temper the next." According to whom?
 * "since its evolution" is a funny phrase

I do think this is a very strong article, and would like to see it promoted to FA status. I honestly think it's close. J Milburn (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, I've uploaded some free pictures of Crowley based on a discussion at Commons. You may consider adding File:Aleister Crowley, wickedest man in the world.jpg to the article- I appreciate it was taken a few years before Montalban met him, but it may add some visual interest to the page. If you'd rather not, that's obviously not a problem. J Milburn (talk) 12:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this, J Milburn! I have acted on your suggestions, making the necessary alterations to the article text. I have also added an image of Crowley, as I do think that it adds a little colour and aesthetic improvement to an otherwise text-heavy page. Regarding "until summer 2012", it does mean that he stopped publishing then, due to his increasing illness and resulting death. I think that the comment on the £10,000 stands, and adopts the emphasis placed on this issue by Philips in her biography; Montalban emphasised the use of magic to get rich, yet £10,000 wouldn't have even bought you a house in most of London during the 1980s. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The only other thing I could suggest is a bibliography, but I suspect this would be difficult- obviously, listing all her articles in magazines would be difficult, and I assume the pamphlets weren't strictly "published". What do you think? Would something like this be possible? J Milburn (talk) 19:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Being perfectly honest, I don't think that that would be possible; little actual research has gone in to Montalban's life and so no one has produced a bibliography of her published work which we could then draw from. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thought so. J Milburn (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Support. I feel that this article is ready for featured status. The sources are used carefully and discriminatingly, the writing is excellent, and the article seems to be comprehensive. It remains scholarly and neutral, despite the fact that the subject matter could lend itself to a very different kind of a approach. J Milburn (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Support This is as good as the article can get without actually turning it into a book. I don't have any criticisms to make. Shii (tock) 14:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Provided "According to her biographer Julia Philips, Montalban had been described by her magical students as "tempestuous, generous, humorous, demanding, kind, capricious, talented, volatile, selfish, goodhearted, [and] dramatic"." is given a citation. Prose is great.  ceran  thor 21:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Done! Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 16:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.