Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Madman's Drum/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 19:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC).

Madman's Drum

 * Nominator(s): Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 13:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The second of Lynd Ward's wordless novels, executed in uncaptioned wood engravings. It is more ambitious than the first, and perhaps less successfully executed—the relatively complicated plot seems more than the young Ward was yet able to handle. Still one of the outstanding examples of an artistic genre that bloomed far too briefly. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 13:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I can't support at the moment, as I believe that a bit more work is necessary. I see no basic problems, however. The idea of a "wordless novel" is intriguing – perhaps we should develop the concept of wordless Wikipedia articles.


 * Lead


 * "...and the fateful consequences it has for him and his family." Clarify whether "it" refers to the theft or to the drum itself
 * I've changed it to "and the fateful consequences of his actions for him and his family." Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Ward was more ambitious with this second work in the medium, and formed more nuanced characters, and a more developed and complicated plot, and explicit in his outrage at social injustice." Three "ands" in the sentence indicates the need to rephrase. Also, "was" needed before "explicit".
 * Changed to "Ward was more ambitious with this second work in the medium: the characters are more nuanced, the plot more developed and complicated, and his outrage at social injustice more explicit". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The last two sentences of the lead are connected, the second presumably being a consequence of the first. I would make this connection clearer, by combining the sentences.
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Synopsis


 * I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "demon-faced drum". The brief description is OK in the lead, but a word of explanation in the synopsis might be helpful, e.g. a drum bearing the image of a demon.
 * Reworded to "A slave trader steals from an African he murders a drum bearing the face of a demon". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Driven insane by the loss of all who were close to him, he loses his mind..." Some redundancy of words here (we don't need "driven insane" and "loses his mind").
 * Dropped "loses his mind". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Background


 * There is no need to repeat Lynd Ward's dates here, and since there is a link to the Harry Ward article, his dates should also be removed – same applies to Masereel and Nuckel, later.
 * (Added): I have always understood that we do not add birth-death dates when the subjects are linked, but I cannot remember the precise MOS guideline. However, if you feel these dates should be kept, MOS:DOB specifically requires that both years be given in full – which you have done in most instances but not for Lyn Ward. Brianboulton (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was mulling this over and forgot to stop mulling. I think I prefer to have the dates (I like to know just how comtemporary his comtemporaries are).  I used to always use the full years until someone in an FAC told me I was supposed to shorten them.  I've gone with full years for Ward, Masereel, and Nückel, and dropped them for Ward Sr. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Suggested reword: "Throughout his career, Ward displayed..." → "Throughout his career, the younger Ward displayed...", and later on, "He was drawn..."
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we know what discipline he graduated in?
 * Fine arts. Added. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "he hoped explore" → "he hoped to explore"
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Production and publishing history


 * You could add to this brief section details of the book's 2010 reissue by the Library of America, in a two-volume edition, details here
 * Okay, I've added this and expanded the publication history. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Style and analysis


 * "The large cast of characters are distinguished..." → "is distinguished"
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "A wide range of emotion..."  → "emotions"
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Try to avoid repeat of "such as" in the first line of third para.
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The sentence beginning "Ward broadens..." is overlong and complex, and could advantageously be split
 * Split it two. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "the "madman" in the tale" – do you mean "the 'madman' in the title"?
 * I don't understand—it's not a quote-within-quotes. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry I confused you with quotes; my intended point was simply that the word "title" seems preferable to "tale". Reading the sentence again, I see that it requires the words "one of" before "a number of", to make sense. Brianboulton (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Reception and legacy


 * Although you begin the section by saying that the book's 1930 release was well-received, you mostly quote two reviewers ("E.P." and Spiegelman) who are strongly critical. Can you find more material with which to redress this balance?
 * I've had little luck tracking down contemporary reviews. Walker states Madman's Drum was "published in 1930 to great acclaim", but doesn't cite a source. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Henry Murray used two images in his Thematic Apperception Test..." – two images from what?
 * Fixed. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "uneven homework" → "uneven artwork", surely, or better: "artwork of uneven quality".
 * Yikes! Fixed.  One of those things a spellcecker will never find for you. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have corrected the JSTOR link to the E.P. review in Burlington's Magazine. In this review the writer makes the point that whereas the reader of God's Man was assisted by captions, the illustrations in Madman's Drum are entirely without guidance which, he says, makes the story difficult if not impossible to follow. This is, I think, a point worth making in your article.
 * What he means by "occasional caption by way of a Pole star" was the chapter titles—the images themselves are uncaptioned. I've rewritten as "A reviewer for The Burlington Magazine in 1931 judged the book a failed experiment, finding the artwork uneven and the narrative hard to follow without even chapter titles as textual guidance that Gods' Man had." Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The "legacy" element – the second and third sentences of the first paragraph – is weak. Berona's 2003 article has more to say about the failure of these early wordless novels to establish a genre, and this material should be incorporated. Also, I think this whole section needs reorganizing. The second paragraph, suitably enhanced, should follow the first sentence of the first paragraph, while the "legacy" material, again properly enhanced, should form the second paragraph.
 * I've expanded and reworded as you've suggested, and added a couple of other things about the gradual decline in sales of Ward's books, and how few wordless novelists produced more than a single book. What do you think of it now? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It still seems to me that the three paragraphs provide a reception → legacy → reception sequence. Recommned that you reverse the order of second and third paragraphs, as a more logical order. Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Although I think the article is well on the way, I think it needs a little more work before it is promotable. I will look at it again in the light of your responses. Brianboulton (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at this, and actually checking out my sources. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Support subject to sources and image clearance. I have one outstanding point on the final section (see above) which you may wish to consider. Otherwise, good responses to my issues. Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Images are fair use but appear to be appropriately justified, captions are fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Support. Had quibbles around the time of nomination and raised through edit summaries. I see that they are resolved now, and post Brian's review would be happy to see this promoted. Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "(ja)", "(fr)": Why the external links in the text? How about handling these in footnotes?
 * Those are using .  The external links disappear automagically when someone gets around to creating English versions of the articles. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "Ward described it as "set a hundred years or more ago ... in an obviously foreign land", but that the situation ...": What does "that the situation" modify?
 * Added "the story's". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 14:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Note -- Nikki or Brian, could I trouble you for a source review pls? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sources review: All sources are of appropriate quality and reliability. All citation formats OK. Brianboulton (talk) 10:12, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.