Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Makinti Napanangka/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:38, 27 October 2009.

Makinti Napanangka

 * Nominator(s): hamiltonstone (talk) 01:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I hope to see more content on Indigenous Australia at WP and this is the first of a couple of dozen artist biographies I am preparing, in aiming for that goal. This is likely to be one of the longer bios: there are a limited number of sources about the individual artists. To pre-empt a likely question: obtaining photographs of any of these artists is likely to be extremely difficult, and in the case of the deceased (not relevant in the current case), may be culturally inappropriate. I have approached one artist directly so far, and my request has been declined, though they have assisted in other ways. I hope the lack of photographic portraits will not be an obstacle, otherwise all the bios I am preparing may fail FAC :-(. Regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 01:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pictures aren't needed, they just show what the person's face looks like, it is their work and actions that counts. A lack of image is completely irrelevant  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket! ) 01:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * Current ref 2 (Johnson..) lacks page numbers. The work is over 300 pages long, page numbers need to be included to help verify information. provided
 * Current ref 4 (Perkins...) lacks page numbers and is over 300 pages. provided
 * Current ref 5 (McCulloch...) lacks page numbers and is over 1100 pages. provided
 * Current ref 8 (Bindberg...) lacks page numbers and is over 400 pages. provided
 * Current ref 10 (Aboriginal Art..) has the publisher run into the link title and what makes this a reliable source? Good point. Source upgraded.
 * Current ref 12 (McCulloch...) lacks page number and is over 200 pages provided
 * Current ref 14 (Bardon..) lacks page numbers and is over 500 pages
 * True, however, in this case, it is a general reference supporting the reputation of the PT artists, and no particular page number applies.


 * What makes http://www.aboriginal-fineart.com.au/artists/view/makinti_napanangka/ a reliable source? Nothing. I've replaced it with a better source.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Normally at FAC (unlike GAN) it's up to the commentor to strike through when they feel that the issues have been resolved. I've removed your strike throughs but bolded your replies. I'll check the stuff later today (have to do some stuff this morning). Ealdgyth - Talk 12:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Actually, the hunt to upgrade those sources resulted in me finding a significant review article on the artist which I had somehow previously missed. So thank you for that too! hamiltonstone (talk) 11:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Image review - Image checks out. Awadewit (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * New image checks out, too. Awadewit (talk) 02:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Good to have an article on this topic.
 * One piece of information the article does not give the reader is whether she speaks English.
 * We say she was born around 1930, and her first child was born around 1940. I appreciate the dates are uncertain, but would the sources support a somewhat more plausible pair of dates? -- JN 466  23:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Responses:
 * I will review some of the books tonight, but I do not recall any of the sources actually stating that she speaks English. It is not unusual in these communities for English to be the third, fourth or fifth language of the residents, and it is not impossible that her English is limited.
 * I have now reviewed the main biographies - McCulloch's (06); Johnson's Lives of the PT artists (08); Isaacs' article from AAC (06); and the entry in Birnberg (04). None specify what other languages she speaks. I do not recall it being mentioned elsewhere. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The text is a reflection of reliable sources. The issue is that the (very reliable) source that reports the first child's birth date is around 1940, is the one source that reports Makinti's birth date as circa 1922. Most other sources (some of them also high quality) state circa 1930. My solution at this point has been to modify the body text to canvas the two alternative birth dates that were until now only mentioned in the footnote. See what you think. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What does Makinti herself say? Has she ever given interviews? Do indigenous Australians use the same calendar that we do? --Malleus Fatuorum 00:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I can only go on the reliable sources, but my understanding is that she was interviewed for the preparation of one or more of the reliable source bios. Pre-European contact, of course they were not using a European calendar, and this indeed may be contributing to ambiguity regarding years of birth etc. I believe this is why you will often see approximate birth years for the current generation of senior Indigenous artists. However, per WP:V, i'm not sure what to write about this in the WP article if it is not explicitly discussed in the source. All the sources say are "about x" or "circa x" without further comment. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * My ignorance of indigenous Australians is awesome, but would I be correct in assuming that registration of their births and deaths wasn't a legal requirement in the 1920s? Was it with the white population then? Might be worth expanding on that just to explain the uncertainty about her dob/age. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Finally found a reliable source for addressing this point. Done. Any other comments? hamiltonstone (talk) 01:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that works. Striking my comments above. -- JN 466  04:49, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. I have done a little copy-editing (pls review), added a missing page number and a missing isbn number – it's a charming compact little article. Great to have an image of one of her paintings now; it's a stunner. -- JN 466  14:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Locality issue. User:Iridescent here expressed concern about the locality data in the article, indicating that there is a lack of links to locations that a lay reader could identify. I have revised the text to provide some more detail about where she was born, compared to the nearest wikilinked location, Kintore, Northern Territory. There are no WP entries for Karrkurritinytja or Lake MacDonald, probably because they are not notable and lack reliable sources for information other than their geographical location. If any editor has further views on this, i would be happy to respond. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. This article would be much stronger if an example of the artist's work was shown, as an image. Please make a concerted effort to get one. I realize that there are copyright and other issues, but still, this is an artist we're talking about, whose life's work is images. There is no legal or Wikipedia barrier to showing one image, under fair use. Eubulides (talk) 18:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that. I am currently having an interchange with Elcobbola on this subject however, despite an oversight on my part regarding the operation of Australia's Copyright Act, I do not think it looks promising. This is why I have included a couple of external links to example works. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That conversation doesn't address my main point, which is that the article can mention one image, and perhaps a few more, under fair use. In that respect this article is like the Roman Vishniac article, a featured article that contains half a dozen copyrighted images reproduced under fair use. For more, please see WP:FAIR USE. Eubulides (talk) 07:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is now a discussion of the image issue at Talk:Makinti Napanangka and I have drafted a proposed fair use rationale, for an image taken from one of the reference books, in one of my sandbox pages: User:Hamiltonstone/Sandbox2. But I can't resolve the issue if I can't get some feedback on whether such an image use is going to be acceptable. As an alternative approach, if another editor thinks they can successfully upload an image such as this one, then we may be able to adopt a fair use or free use rationale under freedom of panorama rules, but i have been unable to save the file. Some help here would be greatly appreciated. I am more than happy to write and revise the fair use rationales, but i'm looking for technical assistance and advice. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Image added following discussion at article talk page. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 *  Comments: Support. A very good article on a subject about which I know less than nothing.
 * I've done some copyediting; please let me know if there's anything with which you disagree (I took a fairly free hand), so we can resolve it.
 * grateful for those copyedits, thank you. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I share Iridescent's concern about locations. You say that Lake Macdonald and Karrkurritinytja lack articles; what about Lupul, Mangarri, and Alice Springs?
 * I have introduced Alice Springs as a reference point for her origin, and a wikilink. There are no articles for Lupul or Mangarri. It is hard to explain to non-Australians just how remote these areas are, and that there are a large number of Indigenous place names such as these which would be found only on the most detailed maps and in some cases, not at all - perhaps partly because there simply are no large scale maps of some of these regions. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if that's as good as it gets, that's as good as it gets. Steve Smith (talk) 00:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This probably goes without saying, but I assume that your use of her first name rather than her last one is standard for Indigenous Australians?
 * You are correct, but it does not go without saying, so I have explained it (I hope), with a reference. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't understand this sentence: "...while the story or dreaming most frequently portrayed by Western Desert women is Kungka Kutjarra, or Two Women, concerning the travel of two sisters."
 * I have attempted a clarification, though I was not sure whether I understood the problem. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That certainly helps. I guess what I'm now a little confused about is where the eastern desert fits into Makinti's art.  She's of the western desert, right?  But this sentence appears to be saying that she blends eastern and western styles.  Does she have some connection to the eastern desert, or does she just happen to incorporate its themes in her art? Steve Smith (talk) 04:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Steve, you've lost me. The Western Desert is both a region and a phrase used to refer to a group of Indigenous Australians. There's no Eastern Desert, and the word "eastern" isn't used in this article at all. So I'm afraid I can't see what you're driving at. Can you explain? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh. I had read the second occurrence of "Western" in that sentence as being "Eastern".  Concern struck, and thank you for indulging a doddering old twit in the meantime. Steve Smith (talk) 18:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "...her Indigenous cultural responsibilities." Is elaboration on what those are possible?
 * Actually, it didn't add much so the phrase has been removed. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is pretty close to FA. Slightly more context needs to be established, I think, and maybe a little more polishing of the prose, but we're basically there.  Well done. Steve Smith (talk) 21:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. I'm going to be the first to risk the potential "how could you possibly support this when there's a minor MoS error in one of the image captions and one of the citations isn't properly formatted" objections, but I like to live dangerously. I do have one serious comment to make though, and that's that I think the lead ought to be expanded to cover Makinta's painting style. I think it's nevertheless a nice article that meets the FAC criteria and deserves to be promoted. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:59, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pay attention, Mall, I beat you to it by eleven minutes. Still, it's reassuring to have company. Steve Smith (talk) 03:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just noticed that. Barsteward! :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 03:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn. Which image? ;-) hamiltonstone (talk) 05:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - there are some minor language problems, but nothing that I really see as a problem. The article is short, to the point, and well structured. More comments might come later or I might just drop them directly on Hamiltonstone's talk page. I see nothing of major concern or anything that troubles me. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.