Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive2

Mangalore

 * Nominator(s): Aviator423 (talk) 14:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I am nominating Mangalore back to the Featured Article Candidates again. It was de-listed from Featured Articles in January 2018, but now all the necessary changes have been made to this article. Please note that Mangalore was a Featured Article in Wikipedia from 2011 to 2018. Aviator423 (talk) 14:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose by Nick-D
Based on reading elements of the article at random, the prose, referencing and comprehensiveness of the article are not currently of FA standard:
 * "Mangalore is the second best business destination in Karnataka after Bangalore and the 13th best in India." - I can't see where this is referenced, and why is it so important that it belongs in the first para of the lead?
 * "India's first and only 3D Planetarium with 8K resolution display, is situated in this port city" - the body of the article doesn't say that this is the only " 3D Planetarium with 8K resolution display", and why does this belong in the lead?
 * The lead repeatedly also states that this is a port city, which doesn't read well.
 * The history section stops in 1980
 * The economy section has several problems:
 * It doesn't explain whether this is a well off or low income city by Indian and world standards, and whether this has changed over time
 * Some material looks to be over-referenced (e.g. " Infosys,[112][113][114] Cognizant Technology Solutions[115][116][117]" and several other such entries)
 * "During 2000–01, Mangalore generated a revenue of ₹33.47 crore (US$4.69 million) to the state" - this seems rather dated
 * "India has built 5.33 million tons of strategic crude oil storages at Mangalore, Padur (near Udupi) in Karnataka and at Visakhapatnam to ensure energy security" - this was done by the Indian Government, not "India", and the statement implies that India now has energy security, which I don't think is the case at all
 * The education section is not of FA standard. What is the value of listing lots of early schools and "Popular educational institutions"? Most of the "Popular educational institutions" are unreferenced. Is it possible to comment on issues like attendance rates, the quality of the education system, etc?
 * The statement that the city has only two museums is not referenced Nick-D (talk) 06:33, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Nick-D (talk),
 * Regarding your point well off or low income city by Indian and world standards, the Dakshina Kannada district (Mangalore is its headquarters and capital), has the highest percentage of workers employed in industry and the second highest industry to district GDP ratio in Karnataka. Bangalore Urban (Karnataka capital and the Megacity) follows Dakshina Kannada district in this parameter. Hence Mangalore is definitely a well-off income city, and not a low income city. Kindly check the following reliable source for details
 * https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/from-india-today-magazine/story/20171009-karnataka-bengaluru-it-start-ups-agriculture-growth-engine-1053993-2017-10-05
 * I've updated this in the article's Economy section.
 * I could not find any reliable source which gives any numeric details regarding Mangalore city's GDP or per-capita income statistics. The existing 2000-01 information, is the only one I could find.
 * The article's Economy section is changed as per your points. You can have a look at them.
 * Aviator423 (talk) 08:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Today, All the issues you've mentioned in the article have been fixed, except for the following 2 points
 * 1. The history section stops in 1980
 * 2. Is it possible to comment on issues like attendance rates, the quality of the education system, etc?
 * Regarding point 1, I don't understand whether there is a specific year that separates "History" with "Modern" content. Can you elaborate about this? What's the matter if the history section stops in 1980? In the article's earlier FA review, this point number 1 wasn't considered at all.
 * Regarding point 2, the statement related to the quality of education system, is added with a reliable source. Mangalore and Udupi comprise a major education corridor in India. I would think of probably adding a few more statements, if reliable sources exist for them.
 * You've also mentioned about attendance rates, I am not sure if attendance rates are provided in sources. I don't think the attendance rate was even discussed in the earlier FA review. There are a few sources that are already existing in the article that talk about 100% results in CBSE, ICSE school exams, etc.
 * Aviator423 (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

I also think that speedy closure of this nomination is in order per my comments and the comments left by others. The article requires much more work than is appropriate for an article at FAC. Nick-D (talk) 09:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have incorporated almost all the suggestions to the article mentioned in these FA review sections. Can you list out the work that is needed for an appropriate FAC article, from the present article version?
 * Aviator423 (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Suggest withdrawal
This article is not ready for FAC and should be withdrawn and independently copyedited and reviewed for MOS. There are too many images, that clutter the article. Grammatical issues are easily spotted (About 8.5% population was under six years of age.) The is needed throughout. There is prose redundancy (As per the 2011 census of India, the city has a population of 484,785, --> Per the 2011 Indian census, the city's population was 484,785.) WP:NBSPs are needed throughout. The article is not tightly focused; for example, considering the sub-article List of educational institutions in Mangalore, every school need not be listed. Sentences are overly long at times, and hyphens are not used correctly (NH-66 (previously known as NH-17[233]), which runs from Panvel (in Maharashtra) to Kanyakumari (in Tamil Nadu), passes through Mangalore in a north–south direction and connects with Udupi, Bhatkal, Karwar, Goa, etc. in the north and Kannur, Kochi, Thiruvananthapuram, etc. in the south while NH-75 (previously known as NH-48) runs eastward to Bangalore and Vellore. NH-169 (previously known as NH-13) runs north-east from Mangalore to Shimoga. NH-73, a 315-km long National Highway connects Mangalore to Tumkur.) 315-km-long highway, and it needs a convert. Images are sandwiching text. There is too much here to address at FAC. The enermous image in "Economy" adds nothing to Economy. Sentences with unclear referents: Out of the 5 million metric tonnes (MMT) storage, 1.5 MMT is stored at Mangalore. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * All your suggestions have been incorporated into the article.
 * In the article, can you please clarify in which statements/places are WP:NBSPs needed?
 * Aviator423 (talk) 02:44, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * With no comment on whether all has been done (those were only samples, and an independent copy edit is needed) I left you several samples of WP:NBSP work needed. Basically, wherever you have a number that shouldn't be cut off from the until following it on line wrap.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  02:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, all was not done; there are still no templates; I left several samples.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  02:59, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added WP:NBSPs and templates in the article.
 * Aviator423 (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose by RetiredDuke
I actually think that articles on cities are the some of the easiest to determine if they're within FA-hood, you just need to check the economy and education sections first. These sections should be all about hard-hitting numbers, but in reality are often the most prone to trivia and fluff.
 * On the economy section, it says that the New Mangalore Port is India's eighth largest port. - The source does not back up what the text says; the source says "The New Managlore Port was declared as the 9th Major Port on 4th May 1974" - this is an estimate from 46 years ago, a bit outdated for a FA.
 * "During 2000–01, Mangalore generated a revenue of ₹33.47 crore (US$4.69 million) to the state." - The year 2000 was 20 years ago, outdated.
 * "The city along with Tuticorin is also one of two points for import of wood to South India." - Without any numbers to show how this is relevant, this part reads like trivia.
 * I see no mention anywhere of an unemployment rate, which is a "basic of basics" for an economy section.
 * "The city's major petrochemical industries include..." cue laundry list of companies without showing how they are "major" or significant to the city at all.
 * "The Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) plans to invest over ₹35,000 crore (US$4.91 billion)" - The source is from February 2006, did they actually invest it since then?
 * The part about strategic crude oil reserves is very confusing. First, we have a source from 2007 saying "India to form crude oil reserve of 5 mmt". The source does not say which part of these 5 mmt is going to Mangalore, but our text sure does. Then we have a source from 2016 saying that "Mangalore facility with capacity of 1.5 million tons has started receiving crude today for testing the facility". So only the second source is actually relevant for us, which means that the text about  strategic crude oil reserves has to be cut in half.
 * Then we have another laundry list of companies, this time IT companies.
 * "The traffic at this port was 122,000 tonnes during the years 2003–04." - This is the kind of information that the economy section needs, but this is a bit outdated.

I'm not going to continue this review since it's clear that the article is not ready for the process. Suggesting withdrawal. RetiredDuke (talk) 15:28, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * I've made the suggested changes to the Economy and Education sections of the article. Please have a look at them.
 * However, I wasn't able to find any reliable source regarding the unemployment rate figures of Mangalore.
 * Aviator423 (talk) 18:36, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate about the "hard-hitting numbers" that need to be added in the Education section? A statement about 100 per cent result in a top school in the city was added, but these aren't numeric stats and were undone today. Can you please give examples about "hard-hitting numbers" that can be added to the Education section? Aviator423 (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

GA first
Might be better to go through the GA review first as it's much more lenient in waiting for fixes to be done and will prep the article for FA review. For a FA review certain expectations of quality should already be adhere to and the GA process will help with that.

Sentances like "this place and that placd are the museums in Mangalore" will be noticed and fix with actual content at a GA review.-- Moxy 🍁 19:43, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. But, the article was an FA for quite a few years, and that's the reason it was brought here for an FA review. Around 2 years ago, an FA review had already occurred leading to the de-listing from FA. The article is already tagged for Peer Review, but I'm unsure whether any Peer Review has taken place. Do you think a Copyedit for this article might also help?
 * Aviator423 (talk) 20:07, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Presumably, you are referring to this 2018 peer review., anyone home? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  20:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC)