Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mark Tonelli/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:18, 18 August 2010.

Mark Tonelli

 * Nominator(s):  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  08:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Tonelli was an Australian swimmer active internationally from 1973 to 1980. He won gold in the medley relay in 1980 at the boycotted Moscow games. More notably, he was an athletes' leader, and lobbied the AOC to allow the team to go, as the govt pressured the athletes to not go. On a more colourful note he was rather rebellious and got into trouble various times for his shenanigans, most notably stripped of the captaincy of the Australian team in 1978 and expelled after breaking a curfew and having a drink and some marijuana. He had also been involved in some other adventurous behaviour that resulted in some injuries, such as getting drunk, trying to steal a flagpole, falling off, and doing his arm.  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  08:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Pre-emptively I need to make comments about the sources. I have used Tonelli's self-published autobiog a bit, which may raise eyebrows. Firstly, swimming is not a mainstream sport and is generally only in the news once a year for the main competition, and the info can be thin, unless one is a multiple-individual gold winner at international level eg Thorpe, Phelps etc or from more recent times when sites like swiminfo.com exist. While about one-third of the distinct footnotes are from Tonelli, only 15% of the actual prose is sourced to him, per a word count. Of this, a small part is about his childhood and explaining his parents' divorce and his half-siblings. About 80% of the self-sourced stuff is his reflections on various races, being happy angry etc, or expressing his attributed opinion about officialdom, or some embarrassing admissions about indiscipline, dangerous pranks etc. I don't think that there is a problem here as almost all of the 15% primary sourced prose is explicitly stated as his opinions on various things, or non-self-serving admissions of bad behaviour. For the record, teh chunk of self-sourced prose (pre-copyedit) is listed below  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  08:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

"His mother was pregnant with twins, but she miscarried one of the children and gave birth only to Mark. The family moved to the northern outback mining town of Mount Isa, where Lyndon worked as a miner. There Muriel left her husband and remarried Renato "Ray" Tonelli, an Italian immigrant labourer. Still a toddler, Tonelli and his stepfather left the town and returned to Brisbane.[2] He adopted his stepfather's surname, but did not officially change his name until he was 18.[3] A decade later, he discovered two further half-sisters from his biological father's remarriage.[4] Tonelli said that the reality was that he could hardly swim at all.[5] Tonelli rates his win over Stephen Holland, the future 1500 m freestyle world champion and world record holder, in a 200 m freestyle race at a schoolboys' carnival as this favourite race. Holland was to break his first world record just a few months later.[6] Keating motivated Tonelli by showing him the best times recorded by American boys of the same age, as documented in Swimming World magazine. Unaware that the Americans were swimming in 50 yd pools, Tonelli could not understand why he could never surpass their times.[7] However, Tonelli said that his greatest motivation was the desire to impress his parents.[8] Tonelli said "Everyone, except me, knew it was a ploy simply to keep the team on its toes".[9] Tonelli self-deprecatingly noted that "I didn't get to see him [Matthes] swim in the final, because I was in the same race five sets of speedos behind".[10] He had swum faster in the second half of the race and felt that he had too much energy left at the end of the race. Tonelli vowed that from then on, he would always back his judgment and race strategy.[13] Tonelli almost killed himself before ever swimming for the university, after joining the campus skydiving club and suffering a mid-air parachute malfunction.[14] Tonelli raced in five events at the Canada Cup held in Edmonton and won four. During a drunken party after the competition, Tonelli and some fellow swimmers decided to steal three giant flags from poles in the city centre: those of Canada, the city of Edmonton, and Alberta. In the process, Tonelli fell off the staff and was hospitalised, his arm put in plaster.[19] Tonelli also admitted to the officials that he had smoked marijuana on the night.[22] In the aftermath of the incident, Tonelli appeared on Australian television, strongly denying rumours that he had been involved in a drug orgy with teammates. He admitted to smoking marijuana, but defended his actions, saying that it was not illegal under Hawaii law. Supporters in Australia, including future Prime Minister Bob Hawke, launched a petition for the reinstatement of the trio, which garnered thousands of signatures, but to no avail.[23] He said that his career was "never the same again" after his expulsion by a "kangaroo court", feeling that the punishment had weakened his will. Tonelli predicted that he could have won eight Commonwealth Games gold medals and possibly set a world record in the 200 m backstroke.[24]"


 * Comment— a dab link to drafting, no dead external links. Ucucha 08:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, I was early by 10s, said popups :)  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket! ) 09:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Must work on my speed. Ucucha 08:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment People linking to Mark Tonelli will learn that he has no redirects. — Dispenser 04:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I suspect Dispenser is suggesting redircts for common misspellings (Tonneli, Tonnelli, etc), or his full name (middle name) such as here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * done a few  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll '')  03:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 *  Comments Support by Aaroncrick—Will jot quieries below as I read through.
 * "... into a working-class family in Ipswich, a city on the edge of Brisbane, the capital of Queensland."—Be clearer and mention how Ipswich is 40km to the south-east of Brisbane.
 * done  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll '')  03:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Tonelli was almost killed before ever swimming for the university, after suffering a mid-air parachute malfunction during an activity with the university's skydiving club."—Anymore on this? How come he wasn't killed?
 * tonelli didn't explain in what way the malfunction was not terminal or absolute  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  02:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "In the process, Tonelli fell off the staff and was hospitalised, his arm put in plaster."—Perhaps a semi-colon instead of a comma?
 * No I don't agree as it isn't a contrast or juxtaposition, but rather hand-in-glove which makes a sc rather odd  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  02:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * " He married his wife Lee in the late 1990s."—No specific year then?
 * Not in his memoir nor the divorce news article, no  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  02:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

 Aaroncrick  TALK 23:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments
 * Who is John Keating?
 * Apart from maternal optimism and a third placed finish, did anything else suggest to his mother that he could reach Olympic standard?
 * Nothing speecific stated by Tonelli, implying arbitrary parental optimism  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  02:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

More to follow later. --Sarastro1 (talk) 00:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "his times dropped steadily..." Would it be better to say "improved" here, as "dropped" implies getting worse to those who aren't swimmers.
 * The section which begins "Upon returning to Brisbane...": could it be made explicit that the injury and improvements took place before the final set of trials?

More comments
 * "Tonelli was almost killed before ever swimming for the university, after suffering a mid-air parachute malfunction ..." Is "after" necessary?
 * "Tonelli came eighth in every round of the 100 m backstroke." I assume we are now talking about the Olympics. And this sounds a little odd; I would assume that someone finishing eighth would be eliminated. Presumably it means he had the eighth fastest time in every round. Could this be clarified?
 * "After retiring from competition, Tonelli did television commentary for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, before returning in 1988 in Seoul." Presumably returning as a commentator in 1988, in which case it may read better if "before" is left out.

Everything else seems very good, no problems at all. The Olympic Gold section is particularly good. Some reaction from home afterwards would be good, but as I remember from a previous FAC, nothing is available. The only other suggestion I could make is adding a little about the PMs reaction to the gold, unless you feel it's not relevant to Tonelli's article. No problem if you don't want to. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:45, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * fixed the rest and expanded on Fraser's congratulations as they were battling it out head to head.  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  02:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Support: Excellent article, very detailed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 06:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Support, but please add a picture - you could crop the one on the medley race. The text is good, and even though it feels a bit choppy with all those "he did x s, while the other did y s" I don't it can be significantly improved. The article feels complete for a case like this. Nergaal (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as the image goes, the copyright picture of the team punching the air etc, would never pass the FUC about "significantly" adding to understanding as it only shows them smiling etc, and they're still alive, although not responding to requests  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  00:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Images The first picture of the pool is tagged as GFDL/user created and is the same as in Featured article candidates/Mark Kerry/archive1, while the picture of Fraser is a repeat of Featured article candidates/Quietly Confident Quartet/archive1  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  00:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

 Comments Support –
 * Don't see why his original birth name needs to be bolded in the Early years section, since it already is in the lead.
 * National and international debut: Typo in "Upon returning to Brisbane after the first tound of trials".
 * Commonwealth gold: "he compled the distance...". Another typo.
 * 1980 Summer Olympics: "were too casual in the before the race".
 * Relay gold: "would come fourteenth in the corresponding indivudal event...".
 * Space after reference 48 (first use)?  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 02:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll '')  03:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.