Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Martha Logan/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by 10:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC).

Martha Logan

 * Nominator(s): Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 05:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the criteria. It has been a GA for a number of years and I feel that article has depth and breadth of coverage, but I would appreciate feedback or comments on things that need to be fixed. Steven  Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 05:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose at this time. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that this article is ready for FA status.
 * I find the heavy use of blockquotes, especially for such small passages of text, slightly problematic. They make the article seem choppy and incomplete, which is not helped by the short paragraphs (in one instance, less than a line.)
 * I think I have addressed this. Please let me know what you think. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The non-free images, other than the lead image, are adding little, and really should be removed. Yes, the scenes are important and should be discussed in the article, but that does not mean images are required. Non-free images should be used only if their inclusion adds significantly to the article. You mention this "opening scene" plenty, but never actually say what's in it until right at the end- a non-free image can't be used as a substitute for actually saying something that's important.
 * Done, images gone. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The "Characterization" section feels very limited. I'm not really sure I have an idea of who the character is after reading it.
 * The characterization section comes from material released by FOX themselves, and I couldn't find much apart from the NYT article that describes the customers background and demeanour. Do you have any ideas? Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * In places, the writing isn't quite up to scratch; "on the Suvarov's motorcade" (I assume you mean "on the Suvarov family's motorcade", in which case it would be "on the Suvarovs' motorcade"), "After Jack Bauer fails to obtain a confession from Logan,[3] she screams in public that Logan is a murderer during Palmer's funeral." (Which Logan's which?), "Her marriage to President Logan has been described as "one of the highlights of this year."[6]" (Television highlights? 24 highlights? Highlights from a reviewer's life?), "Smart was also nominated for an Emmy for her performance, Best Supporting Actress in a Drama Category, which she lost to Blythe Danner." (This doesn't make sense.)
 * Fixed. Let me know what you think. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Category:Fictional characters based on real people? A subcategory of Category:Fictional characters by year of introduction?
 * Both added, thanks. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Sourcing problems:
 * Newspaper names should be italicised. Linking to our articles on the newspapers also wouldn't hurt, but isn't mandatory.
 * Italicised, and I've linked the publishers where possible. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 04:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You've got inconsistent date formatting.
 * Fixed. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 04:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Can we have a page number for the West Australian source? I assume that's a newspaper.
 * I couldn't find a page number - I got this from a LexisNexis archive and the page number wasn't on the record. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Is http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2085 really the best source you have on Mitchell?
 * I had a look around but I couldn't find anything else that had this information. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 03:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Ideally, citations should refer to organisations/publications, rather than just websites.
 * I think I've fixed this. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 04:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The article's based mostly on primary sources, with a few (mostly minor) newspaper articles thrown in. Is this really all there is? There seem to be a good few popular and scholarly books on 24; do these have anything to say about the character? A clumsy Google Search suggests that they may, and there will be more books not archived by Google Books.
 * Television Dramatic Dialogue : A Sociolinguistic Study, for instance, uses discussion of Martha on page 54 before she has been seen as an example of a particular kind of dialogue, but also identifies the role of this dialogue in establishing the role and personality of Martha. This may be worth including- if nothing else, a cite to a scholarly book published by OUP helps legitimate the character as a subject worthy of discussion.
 * Jack Bauer for President: Terrorism and Politics in 24 contains an article by Paul Lytle (who seems to have a few publications in this area) which contains a couple of paragraphs of analysis of Logan's espionage-like activities.
 * This is hardly stuff that's going to demand an article rewrite, but I suggest it may be indicative that there's a lot more out there, in terms of high-quality sources.
 * The first book I had a look for online, and Google Books does not provide page 54 for preview - the only option would be to buy it as an e-book (it does not appear to be stocked in local libraries here or book retailers). The second book has some coverage, but I am not sure if it is worth mentioning in detail in the article.  Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 06:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

For me, this article's falling a good way short of the FA benchmark, sorry. J Milburn (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not keen on the use of italics for the quotes; as far as I know, that's not consistent with anything in the MoS, and may in fact go against it. My issue with the article as a whole is this- it's pinned together from half-mentions in not-so-great sources, and ends up very short. I have absolutely no doubt that there is more to be said- there seem to be a few writings on the ethics of 24, and so there's probably some analysis out there somewhere about the permissibility of her actions. 24 also seems to have attracted some attention from films studies departments, and there's some literature coming from that direction, which will probably analyse her role in the series a little more. Have you checked these books for a mention? Does the character feature in any of these? How about these? (The linguistics book, for reference, has this mention. It refers to the sixth of nine functions of dialogue in feature films as proposed by Kozloff. The author believes the functions can apply to other media than feature films. This is explained on pp. 52-3.) I'm sorry, but I just don't think that this article is comprehensive. J Milburn (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Half the references are to episodes of 24. This means that you are mainly using primary sources, and that you are doing a significant amount of original research as the entire Characterization section is based on your individual interpretation of the show.122.172.22.133 (talk) 03:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree that using primary sources constitutes original research. The entire characterisation section came from FOX. Other similar fictional articles which are featured (I.E. Michael Tritter) use the respective TV show as a source of information for what happened to the character. I agree more third party sources are ideal, but disagree with your comments here. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 20:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Sorry Steven but it's not even close to FA quality. The article should have undergone a peer review before this in which you'd have been told how much work is needed.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  14:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * From my experience, peer reviews as I've seen tend to sit there and rot. I thought that this would be a good way to get feedback on the article, and make improvements based off that. Steven   Zhang  Help resolve disputes! 20:22, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 21:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.