Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Masako Katsura/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:45, 11 May 2010.

Masako Katsura

 * Nominator(s): Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I've worked hard to get this article up to snuff. It passed GA and a peer review was archived and all concerns identified have been addressed. Were this promoted, it would be Wikipedia's first billiards-related FA. The subject area is difficult because sourcing on many topics is too sparse to write an article that would meet the comprehensive standard. I have written seven GAs in the area but all were a struggle to find material. Here, though I had no biographies on her to write from, I was able to mine from hundreds of newspaper articles (and few other sources). I have scoured everything I can locate for the material present, with a little help from the fine people over at WikiProject Japan. I am aware that having three fair use images included may be seen as a problem, though I think each one adds to the article. The subject may be a little arcane for some of you, so I hope the three explanatory footnotes I added to provide context (in response to peer review comments) will help. I think she's a fascinating subject and hope you think so too.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 14:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * images none of the non-free images meet wp:nfcc Fasach Nua (talk) 18:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's pretty cryptic Fasach Nua. In what way do you believe they do not meet the NFCC?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Fasach Nua that the images do not comply with fair use policy. See Non-free content
 * File:Masako Katsura—1954 Buenos Aires.png: A free equivalent exists. See File:Katsura, Matsuyama and Greenleaf.Jpg
 * The image you refer me to see (actually, my own upload) as a free equivalent is not equivalent at all. The FU image is of her in competition, in an international championship, in the U.S., with spectators visible, dressed in elegant, occidental clothing as mentioned in the text, in a recognizable shooting form (stance), with a stalking, intent focus on her face, with an in-game shot in front of her, and is of her alone, in spotlight. The "free equivalent" does not begin to convey the same meaning, aura or feel to the viewer. The other image is a casual snap of her in Japan in a kimono in a casual setting and casual game just lagging for the break, with two others present and with her face downturned and relaxed. In short, far from being equivalent, other than sharing the same person, the two images couldn't be more dissimilar.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Both show playing billards. They are equivalent. IMO, fair use is still violated. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As simple an un-nuanced as that huh? I will bow to a consensus on this but we disagree.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * File:1952 world chart.jpg : "No free equivalent" is violated. Can be converted into text/table based on the content of the image.
 * Though I do not think there can be any true equivalent—the form the chart took, its handwritten nature conveying that it was filled out in real time as the competition progressed, and its age darkening and fading provided information separate and apart from the tournament standing numbers it contained—I have nevertheless replaced it with a chart I created, emulating the form of the original. I agree that the extra information, though present, is probably not enough for valid fair use.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * File:Katsura-Matsuyama exhibition ad.png:Contextual significance is violated. It does not " increase readers' understanding of the topic" and its omission would be NOT be detrimental to that understanding.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You should study the image and the context it provides in the article a bit closer before making such an absolutist pronouncement. I think it significantly increases readers understanding and its absence would indeed be detrimental to that understanding. On the more general side, the simple fact that this shows there was advertising in newspapers for these exhibitions is information the article doesn't convey, but far more significantly, the headline ("WOMAN BILLIARD STAR") is very important. It conveys viscerally, in a way that reams of text may not, the true difference in gender roles of the time; this was a really unusual thing, a WOMAN BILLIARD STAR! wow!; what's next, women doctors? CEOs? astronauts?. Parenthetically, today, at least in the U.S., women are bigger stars in cuesports than are the men (the men's pool organizations have been splintered and squabbling for years, while the women's side has been running a well-oiled machine).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No copyrighted image is necessary for this. Create an image in Inkspace/Paint based on the ad, if you want to include it. "No free equivalent" is still violated.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Once again, we disagree. Free equivalency, as you've changed your initial reasoning to talk about, does not appear to me to have any application. This is not a chart or map that can just be redrawn.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Oppose inappropriate use of non-free content Fasach Nua (talk) 00:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Wow, she must have been very reclusive if they don't even know what year she died. Stonemason89 (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * She moved back to Japan in 1990 and remember that despite her fame in the 1950s, this was 40 years later and she had been living in the U.S. for all that time. I enlisted the help of WikiProject Japan and that is the only reason I was able to find the "Katsura Memorial tournament held in Japan in 2002 that confirmed her death sometime prior. Up until I was provided that source, I couldn't even confirm whether she was alive or dead.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you read Japanese? If not, you may be able to find someone who can search Japanese language newspapers for some report of her death. It seems likely that if she was considered prominent enough for a memorial tournament, some paper would have published some mention of her death. Everyking (talk) 05:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, if you'll look at the thread I started at WikiProject Japan (reproduced on the article's talk page) I asked for help with all of this stuff, including her death details specifically. People apparently looked and were not able to find anything more. Still, I imagine someone knows how to find the information; maybe there's something like a Japanese equivalent of the U.S.'s Social Security Death Index. But I'm not sure what I can do further than what I have (and no, I don't read or speak a word). Once I was provided her Japanese name, I did Google Web, News and Book searches in Japanese and used machine translation to see if there was anything useful, and there was precious little.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe it isn't possible to find that information. But I noticed you're citing the sentence "Katsura returned to Japan in or about 1990 to live with her sister, Noriko, where she said she planned to live out her days." to a source published in 1983. Everyking (talk) 09:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Egad. Good catch. Please rest assured I got the information right. The mistake was that I switched the reference (by the same author). It's from Byrne's Advanced Technique in Pool and Billiards which is from 1990, wherein he states "recently her niece arranged for her return to Japan where she plans to spend the rest of her years with her sister Noriko..." It's fixed.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Update I have asked the people at the Japan WikiProject if they can think of any way to track down her date of death. Though I asked before, it was buried among a larger request. I thought maybe asking a focused question might yield results. The post is here.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "after 1990" is too vague. Even if she is alive today, she will die after 1990. At least limit the year to death to a period, between yr x to yr y -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have nothing against saying "between 1990 and 2002" but let's see what others think as MOS:DOB suggests this as the proper format.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Questions Are her younger siblings alive? Did they have children? Can they be located?. Were they world-class players also?. It looks like SI has an article on Noriko Katsura also - what does that say?...Modernist (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * From the article: "Katsura's two younger sisters, Noriko and Tadako, also won the women's straight rail championship [of Japan]." So yes, they were both world class players. I never found a source which even disclosed her brother's name and no mention of his involvement in the game. I looked for and found no information on Tadako other than the one mention above. Noriko apparently had quite a career at the game, though nothing like Masako's. Noriko was apparenlty alive at the time of the memorial tournament (per one of the users who's been helping me via WikiProject Japan). The text of the memorial tournament page also mentions that Noriko had a son, Kazushige, who was also a billiards player and is also deceased. I don't know of any other relatives. I don't know any useful way I could contact them, especially given the language barrier. Even if they spoke English, I'm not sure what action I could take. I have had no response to my follow-up post at WikiProject Japan. As for Sports Illustrated, I had looked at that before. It's a photograph of Noriko on page 5 of the February 20, 1956 issue with the caption: "Japanese billiardist, Noriko Katsura, lines up shot in Manila exhibition." The photograph appears in a round up of sports; there is no article.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Update. A Japanese speaking user has gone above and beyond the call and tracked down her date of birth (1/2/1913 in Tokyo) and of death (2/7/95 in Tokyo), but it was through personal contact with a relative so, unfortunately, it's original research that can't be used unless confirmed through a published source. The user advises me me that searches in Japanese using this information did not reveal any corroboration. I have searched in English too and found bupkis.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Why not simply say - Unconfirmed reports have said that she died in 1995 (adding a note to the effect that there has to date been no conclusive documentation found)...Modernist (talk) 14:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been thinking about this and I cannot see how this is different from any other unverifiable, original research a drive by IP adds to an article, saying they learned the fact from a private fount that cannot be checked against an already published source. Qualifying it as unconfirmed in text does not divorce it from its nature.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments – Interesting article, but I see some noticeable over-citation issues, among other things. I read through a good part of the page to find the issues commented on below:
 * In the lead, I was left wondering if the exhibition game link should be moved up to near the end of the first paragraph, where it sees its first use.
 * Done.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Emigration to the U.S.: "she gave a private exhibition for Cochran who wanted to make sure she was as good as reported before finalizing the invitation." Feels like a comma is missing from the middle of this.
 * Added.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Details of the 1952 tournament: Is the full run-down of the finishers really necessary in the prose? It feels like this is trying to make her finish seem impressive, when it isn't necessary to do that at all. A woman finishing seventh in a men's world championship needs nothing else to be impressive. Also, if someone wants to know the results there's a standing sheet right there.
 * Can you clarify whether you are talking about the the two sentences at the end of the section where I provide the final standings, or the entire section where I give the results of each of Katsura's matches?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well since you haven't returned, I think you mean the last two sentences so let me address that. It seems to me that when you have gone through a substantial analysis of what occurred at a tournament, detailed the players involved, where they're from, the format, and so on, not providing the ultimate standings seems to me an essential piece of information that if it wasn't present, would beg for resolution. In other words, I think it's necessary. There's no gloss in the text on her standing., I simply list each player's final standing, and I don't see how that comes across as an attempt to make her more impressive. She came in seventh out of ten and that's what it says in I think neutral language.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That was what I meant. Yes, I see what you're saying, but how much of what other players did is appropriate for an article on Masako Katsura? On a second look, I suppose the standings aren't that much of a problem. However, I did find the following text while peeking at the prose again: "On the last day Harold Worst and Ezequiel Navarra ended in a tie with a playoff to be held, initially to 60 points, but the World Billiard Association decided 60 points was not enough for a true test and, with their consent, raised the tiebreaker format to 350 points. Worst ultimately prevailed, sewing up the win on October 25, 1954." How much of this is relevant for an article on another player? Do we really need to know the tiebreaker format for a playoff Katsura didn't participate in? I feel like this would fit better in articles about Worst and Navarra, or on the event itself. For this article, you could just say that Worst beat Navarra in a playoff, if you want to provide final standings.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 00:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You have a point. But I think there's a balancing act that would not be served by just "Worst beat Navarra in a playoff". While we shouldn't go too far afield in focus, I do think it's important to provide enough that the reader who attaches themselves to the story isn't provided so little on side matters that they would feel cheated if they knew the full story. I have shortened the offending description considerably (diff). Thanks for all your comments thus far.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * In this section, there are a couple lapses into magazine/newspaper-type prose, which could stand to be toned down. Notably, I see "Matsuyama squeaked out a win from his protege with a nail biting 50 to 48 finish" and "Katsura shook off the beating and pulled out a win".
 * Toned down.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I really think the citations should be looked at throughout the article, to see if any can be safely removed.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Exhibition tours: I see a few examples of over-citation here. In the first paragraph of the section, there are four straight uses of reference 51; while the first is for a quote, the next two cites from it could be cut easily, without compromising verifiability. Also, reference 17 gets a massive amount of use in the following paragraphs, and I see some over-citing there as well. In particular, you don't need to use it both directly before and after the block quote.
 * Immediately afterward, references 8 and 53 are used nine times combined in a paragraph. At least several of the cites are redundant and could be removed, leaving those later in what text is being cited. Are match results that controversial as to require a cite for each sentence? We have high citation standards here, but we merely demand that all content be cited; if several consecutive sentences are cited by one source, that's usually fine (quotes and contentious items should be cited directly, of course).
 * In every place where a citation repeats, I have eliminated every prior iteration in the same paragraph except where a quote or a different source is interspersed, thereby eliminated 38 citations.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

'''Sources comment: as you have elected to show access dates for hardprint online sources, you need to be fully consistent: [29] lacks access date at present. Otherwise, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 21:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for pointing this out.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.