Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Master of Puppets/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC).

Master of Puppets

 * Nominator(s): Retrohead (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

This article is about Metallica's third album, widely considered the best album the heavy metal genre has to offer. I followed a similar writing pattern to ...And Justice for All, featuring sections about the recording, music & lyrics, etc. I believe the sentences are concisely structured, without much unnecessary statements and closely follow the topic.--Retrohead (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose on comprehensiveness issues. I'm sorry to do this to you Vic, but there are enough of these that I'd suggest withdrawing and bringing back to FAC after they're dealt with:
 * This is one of the key albums in early thrash history, but we're given no context as to where it fits in—it needs a brief band history, a brief history of thrash (where it came from and how it had developed by 1986), and most shocking of all, no mention of 1986 as the magic year that thrash came into its own—the year of Reign in Blood and Peace Sells... but Who's Buying?. "1986" is one of the key memes in thrash mythology—check out how it's handled in both the Reign and Peace articles.
 * No information on equipment used—what brand of guitars were they playing? This obviously isn't a RS, but it shows the info's out there.  Here's a tiny bit lifted from a 1992 issue of Guitar Player.  Info here from Rasmussen himself, unfortunately I don't think it'd be accepted as a RS.  This appears to be a RS.  Probably the best sources would be old guitar magazines.  I'd try asking on the talk pages of the rock and metal WikiProjects for people who might have this stuff.
 * The musical analysis is extremely thin: nothing about the odd time signatures or the acoustic intro to "Battery", etc. There's lots out there—I'd be surprised if there wasn't enough to give each song a paragraph at least.
 * Sources that should be mined:
 * Metallica: The Frayed Ends of Metal (1993)
 * Metallica: Fuel and Fire (1998)
 * Damage Incorporated: Metallica and the Production of Musical Identity (2006)
 * The Ultimate Metallica (2010)
 * Guitar World Presents: Metallica (2010)
 * There's plenty of good stuff to mine even from the sources you've already used—for instance, from Popoff's Metallica: The Complete Illustrated History there's this: "...the record received no airplay. None.  In fact, it received no mainstream promotion of any kind.  It sold a half-million copies by word of mouth and by the band busting their asses on the road.  In fact, the music industry embraced Metallica because the sheer number of units the band shifted without their help meant they had to."  This kind of thing is just to significant to ignore.  Also stuff like alcohol and Alcoholica.
 * Ulrich gave a story at Sabbath's induction into the R&R HAll of Fame about playing on the Ozzy tour, and Ozzy was pissed off because he thought Metallica was trying to "take the piss" out of Sabbath with their music. I don't see even a mention of Sabbath in the article.
 * No mention of Diamond Head, Venom, Thin Lizzy, NWOBHM, Misfits?
 * Sorry again. The article's fine for GA, but it's still much too far away from FA. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I've read your comments at the unofficial peer review. I couldn't find a source about the comparison of the title track with Sabbath's "War Pigs", which seems limited to forum discussions. Couldn't find a thing about the Ninja Turtles either, because I only have the CD. I'll take a look at the links you've offered and see where can I expand the prose. I'm afraid that I can not extract much from the books above, because I don't own a printed copy, and Google Books only shows scarce previews. Thanks for the ideas on what needs to be improved by the way.--Retrohead (talk) 14:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't worried about the "War Pigs" thing---if RSes don't mention it, then forget about it. But the general Black Sabbath influence is something that sources do seem to mention.  As for sources you don't have access to---again, that's fine for a GA, but not for an FA.  If you can't access them, you could ask around at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rock music, or WikiProject Resource Exchange---people can share sources with you or add information using their sources themselves. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, I can expand the background of the band, but mentioning Reign in Blood and Peace Sells there won't fit because they were released afterwards. I assume they would be more adequate in the commercial performance? Speaking about the Popoff quote, isn't the same information already mentioned→"Despite virtually no radio airplay and no music videos, the album sold more than 500,000 copies in its first year"?
 * Sorry, I missed that "500,000 copies in its first year" thing. As for Reign in Blood and Peace Sells, I imagine there should be something like a "Legacy" section discussing its place in music history---its influence, its relation to other recordings, the direction the band followed after its release, etc. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Misfits link–the book is discussing The $5.98 E.P.: Garage Days Re-Revisited and the fifth track there, but doesn't mention this record. I can do a song-by-song analysis, which I agree, it should and will be expanded. The only thing you misunderstood me was using the books above. Is there something significant there that isn't featured in the books available on Google Books? Music analysis is accessible, also the band's experience with Ozzy on tour.
 * If there are entire books out there on the band that simply haven't been consulted, then it's hard to believe the article is really comprehensive: that's WP:WIAFA 1b and 1c. If the books were consulted and nothing interesting were found, then it's not an issue.  Again, you can get away with that at GA, but not FA. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Recording equipment–is this indispensable? I've passed six or seven biographies, but none of them seem to give any weight on what guitars were used. Is it obligatory for featured albums to have detailed description on the equipment? And lastly, can you do daily check to see if the a added sentences are properly structured?--Retrohead (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If there's no information on equipment, then it obviously can't be included, but I think it's unlikely---guitar magazines can be pretty obsessive with these details. Master of Puppets is a prominent recording noted for the technicality of its music---it's highly unlikely these details can't be found.  There's no reason you should be expected have access to all the appropriate sources yourself---ask around and people can help you.  Somebody out there must have access to a stash of old guitar magazines.  At the very least we should have the players' main guitars and amps, and hopefully basic info on their touring setup.  I've put in a request at a few WikiProjects. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know how much media attention Metallica received back in the day, but my pick would be 1986 issues of Total Guitar or Guitar Player. I've been buying these stuff and they deal pretty much with guitar tabs and gear, so they might be the thing we need. As for the suggested books, I'm not sure if a book by Chris Crocker is a wise choice. The most interesting information in Halfin's photobook was Hetfield performing on a guitar with a sticker "Kill Bon Jovi" during 1985 Monsters of Rock, but I think that would be considered trivia.--Retrohead (talk) 17:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure the guitar magazines would have given much detailed attention to Metallica in 1986, but I hadn't stated reading guitar magazines then yet. There was definitely a pile of stuff in the nineties after the black album hit, including retrospectives and all-Metallica specials. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 17:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I've begun expanding the music description. Is it done in the manner you expected ("The Thing That Should Not Be" or "Damage, Inc." for example)? I've got yet to fill half of the tracks, but I think you required concise and comprehensive sentences.
 * You definitely want "concise and comprehensive sentences", but you could certainly go into more detail with the songs. "Master of Puppets" and "Sanitarium" in particular have interesting song structures and dynamics that should be covered.  Also, is the middle section to "Master of Puppets" really "melodic"?  It drops into a clean, arpeggiated riff with a melodic solo over it, and then gradually adds in crunch until it becomes Sabbath-heavy with the "Master, Master, where's the dreams that I've been after"---that's definitely part of the "middle section", and is hardly what you'd call "melodic", and I'm not sure the arpeggiated riff which is the key part of that section is what you'd technically call "melodic" either. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Is the background done properly? I've tried to put the thrash origins and the band's background into the same context, in order to stay on the topic.
 * It's much better, but I think you should throw in a bit about the emerging thrash scene as well, to provide context for why this album would be considered so important. The bits about Metallica could use a few more details: foudning year of the band, release year for Kill 'Em All, etc. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Are Ozzy's anecdote and the "Alcoholica" stuff well explained? These are not much represented in the books, but I tried to extract the most important aspect.
 * The Ozzy bit's good. Weren't there "Alcoholica" t-shirts at this time? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, added the t-shirts. Guess we're done with this note.--Retrohead (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding bands such as Diamond Head, Venom, Misfits, I assume you mentioned them as part of Metallica's influences or thrash metal predecessors. I think they are more appropriate in the thrash metal article. They are given no value in encyclopedias that elaborate on this album, nor in the Reign in Blood and Peace Sells... but Who's Buying? articles, which are FA and GA respectively.--Retrohead (talk) 21:30, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You could through the influences into the "Background" section. I'm surprised at how short and thin on details the Reign in Blood article is---there isn't even any discussion about what the music sounds like!  we're told "the song 'Angel of Death' 'smokes the asses of any band playing fast and/or heavy today'" without being told what it sounds like!  You should aim for a higher standard than that.  You have sources---use them. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Hey Turkey, I've got a question about the latest additions I'm about to do. What do you mean by some tracks being retired and then revived for concerts in 1998/1999? As far as I know, "Battery" and "Sanitarium" were frequently performed in the early 1990s, as well as "Master of Puppets" (check setlist.fm for more details). And by revived you mean with modified arrangements, or something else?--Retrohead (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The source says they had "not been played consistently in at least ten years". I guess that means they were played here and there, but in '98–'99 they were on the setlist?  I guess perhaps "retired" is the wrong word. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Closing comment -- per Retrohead's request, I'll archive this shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:34, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.