Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Master of Puppets/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC).

Master of Puppets

 * Nominator(s): Retrohead (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

This article is about Metallica's third studio album, considered an artistic pinnacle of thrash metal. The band would experience increased popularity afterwards, becoming heavy metal's leading act in the 1990s. This record is subject of many musical analysis about the roots of extreme metal and its further development.--Retrohead (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Support I'm not much of a music guy, but I recall being impressed by this article when I first encountered it (at DYK?) and it's only got better since then. I made two entirely trivial edits. The prose is wonderful; like the last time I read it, makes me actually want to listen to a metal album. Maury Markowitz (talk) 21:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Nergaal Nergaal (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the intro should mention some of the most notable tracks
 * "in 2006 by playing it in its entirety." → where? during a single concert?
 * During the Escape from the Studio '06 tour, mentioned in 'Live performances'.
 * "musicianship" is this a real word?
 * Yes, it is—it means the technical quality of one's playing. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "on signing Metallica" mention year
 * You mean when Alago signed the band? 1984, mentioned in the background.
 * "The original artwork was sold at Rockefeller Plaza, New York City for $28,000" when?
 * In 2008, added.
 * "The album was recorded with the following equipment:" if you use ":" why is everything after it split by "."s?
 * Corrected, used semicolon instead.
 * "in the sense of "assault and battery"." says who?
 * Joel McIver, cited at the end of the third sentence.
 * "at 220 beats per minute" is this a lot?
 * Compared to today's mainstream music, incomparably faster.
 * "off-kilter 5/8 time signature on each fourth bar" what do kilter and bar mean?
 * Off–kilter means unbalanced or awry. Bar measures a small amount of time in written music.
 * " two-and-a-helf "
 * Corrected.
 * in "Music and lyrics" why did you have each paragraph cover 2 songs instead of 1? also, this section should have linkers like "the first/second/third/nth song"
 * Largely because the songs are not equally covered. You have "Disposable Heroes" in three sentences and "Battery" in five, so I tried each paragraph to contain similar quantum of information.
 * "1986 is" never start with a number
 * You mean the sentence shouldn't begin with a year? I've seen many FAs with sentence structures such as this.
 * accolades section should mention the years when the lists were put together
 * The publishing dates are visible in the reference templates. I think mentioning them in the prose is going to make the text tedious.
 * "Professional ratings" table is a bit short imo
 * I decided to omit receptions such as "favorable/unfavorable" because they seem variable from reader to reader. Spin, Rolling Stone, and BBC Music don't feature ratings, and that's why they are omitted from the table.
 * the last part of the 2nd para in "Commercial performance" should probably be moved into the accolades/critics section
 * Could fit there, but since it discusses the impact of "thrash metal's first platinum album", it's per se connected to the commercial performance.
 * this section could perhaps list the countries where the album ranked
 * The countries are listed in 'Charts'. It would seem repetitive listing them on two places.
 * "Metallica Through the Never" mention year pls
 * Year added.
 * "crosses were rising from the stage during the song" → add reminsicent of the album's cover art
 * Done.
 * "after having been retired for a number of years" why? I thought that MoP is by far one of the most popular of their songs
 * "Battery", "Welcome Home (Sanitarium)", and "Damage, Inc." were retired, "Master of Puppets" was performed in shortened version.
 * charts list seems a bit surprisingly short imo. any year-end charts?
 * You have the positions per year in this diff. The album wasn't a notable commercial success in its initial years, but gained recognition after 1991.


 * Comment: Please add alt text for all images. -Newyorkadam (talk) 05:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)Newyorkadam
 * Done.--Retrohead (talk) 10:55, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Image check. File:Metallica - Master of Puppets cover.jpg has an acceptable non-free media rationale. File:Metallica - Master of Puppets.ogg and File:Metallica (1986) Welcome Home (Sanitarium) sample.ogg seem acceptable as well; I think that 3 is a bit borderline with the "minimal use", but acceptable. File:Kirk Hammett playing.jpg has an acceptable licence in Flickr, which has been already reviewed in Commons. Article check will follow. Cambalachero (talk) 15:36, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * More comments by Cambalachero: I will check section by section, and leave the intro for the end (as it must be a summary of everything else)
 * Background and recording section: I don't think that "musicianship" is the right word for that context. If it is the technical quality of the music, then it can not be "aggressive"; that's the style, not the quality (thrash metal, as any other genre, has good quality and bad quality performers). All the sentences with maintenance tags must be fixed. "Metallica was motivated" is a bit wordy, and lacks a reason: I would expect a sentence using that word to clarify why or what motivated someone to do something (if they wanted to make a well-received album just for the heck of it, then you may use the verb "want"). "Hetfield and Ulrich described the songwriting process as starting with "guitar riffs, assembled and reassembled until they start to sound like a song".": all quotations must have a footnote immediately afterwards. Question: did Mustaine tried to sue Metallica for the rights of "Leper Messiah", the logical consequence of his claim, or did it stay confined to things said to the press? (if it's the later, then it's fine as it's written). "and decided to record" is wordy. "Hammett recalled that the group was "just making another album" at the time and "had no idea that the record would have such a range of influence that it went on to have".": again, immediate reference after quotation. "The cover was designed by Metallica and Peter Mensch [add a comma] and painted by Don Brautigam" Cambalachero (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * First of all, thanks for the suggestions. I think Mustaine has not sued Metallica for using ideas of his own because those things are legally hard to prove. He hadn't done that with "The Four Horsemen" vs "The Mechanix", which is a more obvious copyright violation than this one. Summa summarum, it's just a speculation. I understand "musicianship" as a style of playing/performing, in our case, "aggressive" performance. I'm little puzzled by the "cn" tags because every information is sourced. For example, the first two sentences are sourced with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame biography, including the "aggressive musicianship and vitriolic lyricism". Instead of repeating the cite at two places, I used it at the end of the second. Other notes are under way.--Retrohead (talk) 20:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Mustaine couldn't have sued over the earlier songs, because he's credited for them and thus gets royalties (he couldn't legally block them from using the songs). With "Leper Messiah", assuming his claims are true, he'd have to have some kind of proof—a demo recording or something.  If he doesn't, then all he can do is bitch in the press, which he sure loves to do. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:34, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know that he's credited and receives royalties for his first songs with Metallica, so there's nothing to complain about (he's not the first guy who left a band and left behind songs written for it). That's why I asked about Leper Messiah, as being the uncredited author of a song sounds like something that could start a legal battle, if it could be proved; and if such a battle took place the article should have talked about it (featured articles must be comprehensive). But, as said, if it didn't go beyond the press, the current coverage is fine. As for the tags, I really don't understand what does "Metallica hired Q Prime's Cliff Burnstein and Peter Mensch" mean. What is Q Prime? It is not clear from the context, and I don't think it has anything to do with Star Trek... Cambalachero (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Music and lyrics" section. Comments such as "were considered" or "were praised" must detail who thinks those things. ""Battery" is about anger and refers to "battery" in the sense of "assault and battery"", can we rewrite that sentence without using the same word three times? It may be better to link Cocaine dependence than just cocaine, as it's more precise for the context. Cambalachero (talk) 13:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Brock Helander is the one who praised the lyricism for its honesty. I could credit him in the prose, but it will sound trite. A search on Google Books will offer you many critics who spoke positively on the lyrics. I could mention the author if you insist, but that would hardly be of any interest to the reader.
 * "Critical reception" main section, I did not notice any problem. Cambalachero (talk) 14:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, but the credit there goes to Dan56.
 * "Accolades and legacy" section: you mentioned Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax, and then said "these bands were being called the "Big Four" of thrash metal". Perhaps it is evident from context, but you should clarify that the fourth one is Metallica. Cambalachero (talk) 14:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Clarified, mentioned Metallica along with the rest of the big four.
 * "Commercial performance" section: "Master of Puppets became thrash metal's first platinum album and by the early 1990s it successfully challenged and redefined the mainstream of heavy metal." Are we talking about Master of Puppets, or about Metallica? As for the early 1990s (not the mid-1980s), if I remember well the bands that "successfully challenged and redefined the mainstream of heavy metal" were bands like Pantera and Biohazzard, which redefined thrash metal even further; Metallica's black album was a huge success, but not one that redefined the whole of heavy metal as "Master of Pupets" did. Cambalachero (talk) 14:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Corrected. The author meant that thrash metal as a genre redefined mainstream heavy metal in the early 1990s, not solely this album or Metallica.
 * "Touring" section: There is a contradiction with the article about Cliff Burton. Here, it says that the driver was charged with manslaughter, there, it says that the driver was determined not at fault for the accident and no charges were brought against him. Which one was it? Besides, you may add File:Clifford Burton Memorial Stone At Crash Site.jpg to the section. Cambalachero (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The driver was accused for the accident, but the court found him not guilty.
 * "Live performances" section: add a reference for the claim that "Master of Puppets" is the most played Metallica song (does someone keep the track of those details?) Cambalachero (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Does the band's website counts as an appropriate source? I know it's primary, but it's the best one I could found on Google.
 * Lead section: "Many bands from all genres of heavy metal have covered the album's songs, including tribute albums." This seems something interesting to talk about, but it not mentioned later in the article. Perhaps you should add a new paragraph at the "Accolades and legacy" section, talking about this. Cambalachero (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This is likely based on the 2006 edition of Kerrang! ('Accolades and legacy') in which the album was covered by a variety of bands.
 * Metallica was motivated by fans and critics expectations to make successful album. I wanted to ask something: Is it obvious (from the context) that Cliff Burnstein and Peter Mensch are managers working for Q Prime (record label)?--Retrohead (talk) 08:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Clarified, nevermind.--Retrohead (talk) 08:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Cptnono (Might take a day or two, putting this in my own queue and asking the coords not to archive this just yet juust in case it looks like its becoming stagnant..Cptnono (talk) 05:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice overall. I like that it doesn't get too wiki genre warish. Good style. Good writing. I believe most of the above is reletively easy to address. Cptnono (talk) 04:35, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a clarification needed tag in the first paragraph of the body. I can't tell why but it needs to be addressed or removed.
 * Addressed. It was whether Burnstein and Mensch were managers, which I thought was obvious from the context, but clarified anyway.
 * "El Cerrito" should be clarified with California. People outside of the area probably don't know where it is and he article doesn't mention the state beforehand.
 * Done, wrote the state within it.
 * "The recording took longer than the last album because Metallica developed a perfectionist sense and had higher ambitions. for this one " or some other change?
 * For this album, mentioned at the end of the sentence.
 * I wanted a little more about the cover while reading the article. I always assumed the art was more related to Disposable Heroes than Master of Puppets but could be wrong. Regardless, I would still like more info on the background of the art if a source can fill that hole.
 * Will search for more info. Sorry, but major Metallica biographies don't offer larger information on the cover (such as inspiration, creation, etc.) What is in the article is all I can provide.
 * I had a hit on my first try: "Rock and Roll Always Forgets: A Quarter Century of Music Criticism" pg101. Surely there is more out there.
 * "The album was recorded with the following equipment:..." could be its own paragraph. This could maybe be expanded if you felt like it and found sources but is not necessary to reach FA.
 * The equipment information was provided by Curly Turkey (big thanks for that). I don't have the magazines, so this is the best the article can offer.
 * "...who had his arm severed in a car accident." should this read "recently had" or "after he had"? It comes across as trivia otherwise.
 * Time adverbs such as recently are not allowed per WP:RECENTISM. In my opinion, this is less verbose than going with "after he had".
 * I don't think I properly expressed my concern and RECENTISM doesn't apply in the sense that I am getting at. The line needs to be reworked in some way.Cptnono (talk) 04:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, got you point. Already fixed.
 * The sentence with "both open with a fast thrasher with an acoustic intro" is hard to follow. Can you edit it to make it clearer (I believe that if I stumbled on it someone who doesn't enjoy the genre will have a harder time).
 * Agree, "thrasher" sounds like a fancruft a bit.
 * There are a couple tags in the "Music and lyrics" section.
 * Addressed, credited the author.
 * ""Battery" is about anger and refers to 'battery' in the sense of 'assault and battery'." Should "the term" be used somewhere in that line?
 * Done, thanks for the advice.
 * I can't read the source but "The theme is cocaine addiction, a topic considered taboo at the time." jumped out. If that is hat the source says then keep it.
 * Yes, that is the exact sentence I used from King's book.
 * Several of the thoughts in the review section look like they need to be in quotes. Maybe the following section, as well.
 * These are largely paraphrased, that's the main reason why they are not in quotes.
 * I don't understand "and offered readers the cover album Master of Puppets: Remastered". Was it on special order through the magazine?
 * The CD was part of the magazine's issue. It was kind of a gift to the readers.
 * "The driver maintained that he hit the patch of black ice, but Hetfield disputed that." What did Hetfield and the charging officers believe? What was the result?
 * The driver was accused, but found not guilty.
 * I understand. Did Hetfield say he was drunk, negligent, reckless, or something else like that?Cptnono (talk) 04:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I also think that the article could be a little overkill with nonfree content. Not enough to withhold support but throwing it out there. Speaking of nonfree, some of the writing read like something I would see in a professionally published book instead of a volunteer project like Wikipedia. I could not find any blatant copyright vios from what I could check so I trust that you just did a really nice job. I'm not too worried but do a quick run through to double check close paraphrasing.
 * Thanks for the kind words.
 * Speaking of links, #12 is a dead link.
 * You need to have username on Classic Rock to be able to read their articles. I don't have and that's why I can't access the page on their website. Luckily, I managed to read the article before the staff introduced the new rules.
 * Ref #3 and #5 (I'll let you check the rest) notes pages but instead lists chapters.
 * The counter on Google Books doesn't display the pages, that's the reason why I cited the chapters instead.
 * I believe chapters can be used instead of pages: Template:Cite bookCptnono (talk) 04:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Closing comment -- I see no consensus to promote developing after nearly six weeks, nor much recent activity, so I'll be archiving this shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.