Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Maurice Suckling/archive1

Maurice Suckling

 * Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 07:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

This article is about Maurice Suckling, a Royal Navy officer of the eighteenth century. He fought in only one major battle and much of his career was, as one historian puts it, "uneventful and perhaps even lacklustre". For three years before his death he did serve competently as Comptroller of the Navy, enough to make him notable. What makes naval historians prick up their ears about Suckling is less to do with himself and more to do with his nephew, one Horatio Nelson. Suckling was Nelson's first patron in the navy and his influence saw the young naval officer rise quickly through the ranks, such that after Suckling's premature death from illness Nelson remarked "I feel myself to my country his heir...And it shall, I am bold to say, never lack the want of his counsel". Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 07:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Support by Unlimitedlead
Hello, Pickersgill-Cunliffe. It is very nice to work with you again; I will take on this review over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "Despite misgivings over Nelson's suitability for the navy, Suckling supported him...": Were these misgivings from Suckling or from others? This is not clear.
 * Reworded.


 * Why is note 1 not at the end of the sentence? And why does the article accept the 1726 date instead of the 1725 one? What confirms that Suckling was actually born in 1726?
 * Moved. I believe it to be physically impossible for Maurice to have been born on 4 May 1725, because his sister Catherine was born on 9 May 1725.


 * "...historian John Sugden...": false title?
 * Changed all I could find (did I do this correctly?)


 * "With the end of the War of the Austrian Succession...": it might be worth noting when the war ended.
 * I've reworded this slightly instead, because the war doesn't officially end until four days after Boyne reaches Spithead


 * "...which naval historian David Syrett...": another false title?
 * As above.

More to follow. I have read up to First commands, and everything seems to be good so far. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The First commands section seems okay. Will look further soon. Unlimitedlead (talk) 15:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "...Suckling was unable to stop the French ship escaping": Suggest changing to "...Suckling was unable to stop the French ship from escaping".
 * Done.


 * "...Suckling was happy to use his influence for Nelson...": Suggest changing to "...Suckling was happy to use his influence for Nelson's benefit/advancement..."
 * Done.


 * "...navy while it was at peace": What is meant by "it"?
 * Reworded.


 * Can note 8 be formatted as a sentence?
 * Done.


 * He would often spend days at a time "in much bodily pain": What is the reason for these scare quotes? It should be attributed to someone.
 * Done.


 * "...William Cavendish, 3rd Duke of Devonshire, another powerful family": William Cavendish is not a family, but the Cavendish family is.
 * Reworded.

An interesting read. Your writing style is reminiscent of the ancient classics; perhaps they have influenced you? In any case, you have done a thorough job researching Suckling and I look forward to offering my support for this nomination once the above comments have been addressed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the review! Not the first time I've been told I write in an old-fashioned style. If you read enough of the books, I suppose it seeps into you! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 21:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I will support this nomination. Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support by Chris

 * "His mother then, along with his sister Catherine and brother William, moved the family to live at Beccles" - reads oddly, as it sounds like it was a three-way joint decision to move. I would say "His mother then moved the family, which also included his sister Catherine and brother William, to live at Beccles"
 * Done.


 * That's all I got as far as the end of "first commands". Back for more later........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * More comments
 * "The French squadron having received heavy casualties, retreated back into Cape Français" =>"The French squadron, having received heavy casualties, retreated back into Cape Français"
 * Done.


 * "Palmier was off Port au Prince" - aren't there hyphens in that place name?
 * Added.

Sorry to keep doing this in dribs and drabs, I seem to keep getting part way through and then having to drop off......
 * That's it on the Seven Years' War section -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Even more comments
 * "he never voted or spoke during his tenure in the House of Commons" - maybe change to "he never voted or made a speech during his tenure in the House of Commons" so it doesn't imply that he was literally mute......?
 * Done.


 * "At the time of his official join date Nelson was in fact still at school in Norfolk" => "At the time of his official joining date Nelson was in fact still at school in Norfolk" (unless "join date" is a specific naval term.........?)
 * Done.


 * Think that's it - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for leaving a review! I've responded above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 21:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Source review
Spotchecks not done


 * Check alphabetization of References
 * Agh, that's not something I usually mess up!


 * What makes Allen a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * While an old source, I believe it to be regularly used still. In 2004 The Seaforth Bibliography described Allen's two volumes as "older, extensive listings". Speaking more broadly of Allen and his various naval histories (inc. a biography of Nelson, etc), Sugden uses three of his works in A Dream of Glory and two in The Sword of Albion.
 * Hi, could I just confirm that I still need spotchecks? Thanks, Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I didn't do them, but you'd have to ask whether they are needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You're not a first time FA writer so technically they are not required, but I would encourage any editor to do them if they have the time and ability. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  16:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I note that did a pretty thorough source review at ACR, if that might be acceptable and Ykraps agrees that it's so? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no policy but usually spotchecks are only demanded for first time nominators per this essay. I usually do them for FAC because the criteria says sources should be verifiable and the article should be free from close paraphrasing, and I don't know a better way of checking that. As Pickersgill-Cunliffe says, I did a source review for ACR here, which included spotchecks and which, if agreeable, can be used here. Or I'm happy to do additional spotchecks if required. --Ykraps (talk) 19:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi . Is this one good? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The part I did, yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments from Ykraps
Lead


 * A few odd (to me) turns of phrase:
 * "During the aftermath of" sounds odd to my ears. Isn't it in the aftermath of?
 * Changed.
 * " ...brought his nephew Nelson with him" doesn't sound right either. Shouldn't it be took his nephew? To use 'brought' wouldn't one need to be at the end destination?
 * Changed.
 * I've never heard the word 'translated' used in that way. Translation implies some sort of conversion, to me.
 * Translated from one command to another. A phrase I've read and used before, and believe to be suitable.
 * I have also seen the term being used in a religious context, so turns out it can have a wide variety of meanings! I think we're all good here. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delighted to hear it; gives me another synonym to use.--Ykraps (talk) 08:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You may have it right in all these cases but they just seem a bit alien to me. --Ykraps (talk) 07:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Still picking this over but hope to finish up over the next few days.--Ykraps (talk) 08:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Early life
 * "...to live at" seems redundant to me. For conciseness, I would just say, His mother then moved the family... ...to Beccles...
 * Done.


 * My comma usage is probably outdated so feel free to take what I say about them with a pinch of salt but I would put one between ending and Suckling in "With the War of the Austrian Succession ending". I'd also put parenthetical commas around "on 1 November" and "on 2 January 1754".
 * Done.


 * "Suckling's command of Lys, being a ship of the line and officially the command of a post captain, combined with his patronage..." - I might be inclined to add Syrett suggests or something similar. I'm not entirely sure of his point but lieutenants commanding post ships armed en flute but still carrying more than 20 guns, isn't that unusual.
 * Agree that lieutenants commanding ships of the line, especially when en flute or in use as transports, was not unusual. Argue, however, that it is the combination of this point with the start of a large war and his great patronage that makes the promotion a "guarantee" rather than the command alone. I would also note that Lys was not made en flute by Boscawen, but was captured in that configuration.
 * Fair enough but it sounds, to my ears anyway, that, that this had a bearing on Nelson's promotion was more Syrett's opinion rather than a widely accepted fact.

First commands
 * "In Baltimore Suckling spent most of his time..." - I would put a comma between Baltimore and Suckling but as I've already said, that may be old fashioned so feel free to disagree.
 * Will leave this one be.
 * Fair enough.


 * "...but having done so he could expect to be…" - Comma between so and he?
 * *Ibid; there are lots of commas in this sentence already.
 * Ditto.

Seven Years' War
 * "Alongside his promotion Suckling was given command…" - Comma between promotion and Suckling?
 * Done.


 * "On 21 October 1757 Dreadnought and two other 60-gun ships..." - Comma after 1757?
 * Done.

When I learned to punctuate, we put commas everywhere we paused or drew breath; I get the feeling this isn’t how it is now, so I’m going to stop questioning comma usage.
 * mid-day or midday?
 * Midday!

Comptroller of the Navy
 * "...with particular emphasis put on attempts to make Royal Navy shipyards more productive." – What about, 'with particular emphasis on making Royal Navy shipyards more productive', for conciseness?
 * Done.


 * "Suckling proved an adept hand at the head of the Navy Board,..." - What about, 'Suckling proved adept as head of the Navy Board'?
 * Done.

Overall
 * Probably needs some sort of note indicating whether dates before 1752 are Julian or Gregorian.
 * Added to first refn.

That's all I've got. --Ykraps (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for your comments and my apologies for not getting back to them sooner. I've responded above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 09:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Image review - Pass

 * "File:HMS Triumph 1764.jpg" has three separate declarations that it is in the public domain in the UK, but none regarding the US. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, have cleaned up the licensing on that. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:50, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 03:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)