Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mike Capel/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC).

Mike Capel

 * Nominator(s): Albacore (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that I have written this to the best of my ability and to the best of Wikipedia's expectations. Thanks to User:Wizardman for a copyedit and User:Gamaliel, who provided a newspaper article of great importance for the article. Albacore (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, with the disclaimer that I did do some copyediting; I received the aforementioned source as well so can vouch for its proper use (and in hindsight, perhaps it was best the first FAC failed so that source could be implemented). Wizardman  03:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Collegiate career: "and pitched a 9 win and 0 loss record with a 3.68 ERA". Sounds like it needs "to" after "pitched".
 * I meant that it needed "to a", not just "to". Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I knew that. Haha Albacore (talk) 01:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Milwaukee Brewers: "the" needed before Denver Zephyrs. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Both taken care of. Albacore (talk) 01:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments: This is greatly improved since I last read it, and the prose reads smoothy now. I have a few nitpicks, but my biggest problem, and the only reason that I am not supporting at the moment, is that this feels a bit lightweight. It is quite stats heavy, with quite a bit of jargon (incidentally, all adequately explained and linked in my view) and the overall effect makes the article slightly dry and repetitive. Perhaps that is unavoidable, but it spoils the read slightly. I am nowhere near (and will not be) opposing, but I can't quite support yet. Here are some fairly minor additional points. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The lead seems a little light, although there is nothing concrete I can put my finger on.
 * I added extensively to the lead, how does it look now? Albacore (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume there is nothing available about his childhood?
 * I moved something around and added it to the childhood section.
 * "and Capel earned All-State honors": Can we link/explain this?
 * Explained.
 * "He set several pitching records at Spring High School": I apologise if I asked this before, but can we say what record he set?
 * I'm not sure on the records. the source just says "And Clemens' best friend, Mike Capel, set several pitching records at Spring before joining Clemens to win the College World Series for Texas in 1983." The school's website has an "individual records" page but it's empty.
 * "with the 605th overall pick in the 1980 MLB Draft, where organizations choose athletes to play for their teams": I don't often say this, but I don't think we need the drafting explanation here as it is already linked, and it rather interrupts the flow of the sentence.
 * OK, removed.
 * "but instead of signing with the Phillies, he attended the University of Texas": I wonder would "chose to attend" be better here?
 * I agree that it sounds better. Changed.
 * "and pitched a 9 win and 0 loss (9–0) record with a 3.68 ERA": This doesn't quite sound right. I've sent this done before as "pitched a 9-0 win-loss record" with either the numbers or "win-loss" linked.
 * Reworded.
 * "as the Longhorns finished 59–6": And could this be incorporated into that win-loss explanation as well?
 * I linked in the same sentence, so a jump from a pitcher's win–loss to a team's win–loss doesn't seem like too far of a stretch.
 * "ties him with 10 others for the single-season Longhorns record": The record for best winning percentage, I assume?
 * Clarified.
 * "when he allowed no runs off of no hits and a walk": To me (and it may be an engvar thing), "off of" sounds too informal for an encyclopaedia.
 * Rewrote.
 * "On May 17, Denver placed Capel on the DL ": What is the "DL"? It should be spelt out in full on its first mention.
 * Explained in the "Chicago Cubs" section: "Capel continued to pitch for the club until June 30, when the Cubs optioned him to Iowa to open a roster spot for Rich "Goose" Gossage to come off the 15-day disabled list (DL)."
 * "For his Brewers debut, Capel faced five batters and allowed four runs to score (two charged to Capel) against the Baltimore Orioles.": Allowed four runs to score? Never heard that one before. It could be me, but it doesn't sound correct.
 * Rewrote.
 * The personal life section, perhaps unavoidably, reads slightly like a trivia list. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree but I don't think there's much I can do about it. I previously reorganized the information to follow a chronological sequence, which it follows now. Albacore (talk) 18:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree but I don't think there's much I can do about it. I previously reorganized the information to follow a chronological sequence, which it follows now. Albacore (talk) 18:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I significantly rewrote the lead to the best of my ability, and I feel some of the dryness from the article came from the dull and repetitive lead. I added in a sentence in the "Collegiate career" section on Texas that should remove some dryness (later changed "the" to "their"). I read the article again and I'll add some more context to the "Chicago Cubs" section in the next few days. After that section, I think the article reads well. Albacore (talk) 03:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The changes look good. I'll hold off for now until some more reviewers turn up, but if some non-sports people can take a look at this and see what they think, I may switch to support. In any case, good work. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sources review
 * Ref 3: The source is William P Clements Jr papers. How does this source support the sentence: "During his senior year in 1979, the Spring Lions won the AAAA conference state championship, and Capel was named to the All-State team, composed of the best high school players in the state"?
 * Ref 16: The source is The Gadsden Times
 * Ref 33: "Retrosheet" does not look like a professional-quality source. Who publishes it? (also refs 44, 45 and 50)
 * Ref 51: This is marked "subscription required", but there is no indication on the link page as to how to sign up for this service.
 * Ref 59: not high-quality reliable source.  Is it not possible to find a better source for the wedding details? In any event, the present source does not cover all the information in the cited sentence.
 * Ref 63:What is the purpose of this source? There's no mention of Capel on it.

Other than as I have indicated, the sources in general look of appropriate standard. Because the great majority of text sources are behind paywalls, I have not been able to carry out meaningful spotchecks. Brianboulton (talk) 20:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the source review. The William P Clements Jr papers are "Types of records in the Proclamations subseries include drafts and final versions of proclamations (officially called Official Memorandum) issued by Governor Clements". Order "21-129" is: Baseball Championship, State AAAA, Spring High School North, 1979, providing verification for the state championship. The All-State team is referenced by reference four. Ref 16: Added a newspaper parameter. Ref 33 (and others): Retrosheet is published by its founder, David Smith, who won the Henry Chadwick award given by the Society for American Baseball Research to "baseball's great researchers—historians, statisticians, annalists, and archivists—for their invaluable contributions to making baseball the game that links America’s present with its past." ESPN  cites Retrosheet, and speaks highly of it too. Ref 51: You click on the article's title to purchase (or log in to purchase, in this case). Ref 63: The source had Capel listed as the "general manager" but he isn't listed now at the position. I removed the reference and the specific car company. Bloomburg says "Hardin asked Michael Capel, a former Major League Baseball pitcher who is a general manager of a car dealership in Houston." Ref 59: Removed. That reference just supported the year of marriage and maiden name, so I removed those two. Thanks again. Albacore (talk) 01:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

More later.  ceran  thor 14:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC) The prose seems a little weak in places.  ceran  thor 16:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comments from Ceranthor
 * Lead
 * Capel pitched 62.1 innings, had a career win–loss record of 3–4, struck out 43 batters, and had a 4.62 - I realize any word other than had will be forced and awkward, but I think the sentence would flow better if the hads were next to each other. Might be even better as just "... pitched, struck out, and had a career win-loss ... with an ERA of ..."
 * Reworded to the latter.
 * While he played in MLB, - Not positive, but isn't there usually a "the" in front?
 * I don't think that is appropriate here. If you expanded the abbreviation to "Major League Baseball", the "the" before would create an awkward sentence.
 * Drafted by the Cubs, Capel left Texas and signed to play professional baseball. - I think this needs an "After he was" before the drafted.
 * I agree, added.
 * He agreed to terms with the Brewers and played in MLB - same thing
 * See above.
 * Early life
 * Future teammate Calvin Schiraldi called Capel a "hard thrower when he came out of high school" and "the top guy out of the state in 1980".[6] Roger Clemens said he was "probably the best pitcher in the state at that time".[5' - I think these ideas should be linked together; they're a bit choppy as separate sentences.
 * Agreed, combined.
 * College
 * defeated the Oklahoma State Cowboys and the Stanford Cardinal, - Cardinals?
 * It's singular; from our Stanford Cardinal football article: "The team is known as the Cardinal, referring to the color, not the bird. The team was known as the Indians from 1930 to 1972 and Cardinals (also referring to the color) from 1972 to 1981."
 * Cubs
 * On his time with the Crushers, Tom Alexander of the Lodi News-Sentinel said Capel's luck "has been all bad when it comes to wins".[23] - Awkwardly phrased.
 * Reworded.
 * Cubs
 * he led the Midland club in losses (10), wild pitches (11) and wild pitches, no comma
 * Removed.
 * The Cubs recalled Capel to the majors on May 3 with Mark Grace, - how can he be recalled with someone?
 * Reworded.
 * when he allowed no runs and no hits but issued a walk in a 2–1 Cubs loss.[33]  - Get rid of when and insert just allowed or allowing
 * Removed.
 * Brewers
 * Invited to the Brewers' spring training camp, Capel competed against - Invited should be replaced with another phrase. The after thing might not work here. I don't have any suggestions; just play with it.
 * Reworded.
 *  The Brewers optioned Capel to their Triple-A affiliate, the Denver Zephyrs, on April 5, before the start of Milwaukee's season.[41 - the year would be nice...
 * Added.
 * Was his ERA actually 135? The math doesn't seem right.
 * Yes, (5 earned runs allowed / (1/3) innings pitched) * 9 = 135.00. Baseball Reference has him at 135.00 too.
 * Personal life
 * In 2012, Capel worked as the general manager of a car dealership in Houston.[61] - As of 2012?
 * No, in 2012, as the specific source used removed his name in 2013.
 * Where would you say the prose is the weakest? Albacore (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I articulated it poorly. Sarastro seems to have the same feeling; the article is rather stats-heavy which makes it seem choppy at parts. I suppose that's hard to avoid, though.  ceran  thor 14:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Final Ceranthor Comments
 * Collegiate career
 * Capel attended the University of Texas in 1981, - This was his first year. I think it should be enrolled at or matriculated at, not just attended
 * Professional career
 * Capel began professional baseball with the Class A Quad Cities Cubs and the Double-A Midland Cubs.  - How can he begin with both?
 * Over winter, Cape - "Over"? Avoid confusion and use during.
 * After the Cubs acquired Mike Bielecki from the Pittsburgh Pirates on March 31,  - new year?
 * General
 * Nothing else at all about personal life?
 * Newspapers generally have publishers. Therefore sources 8 and 23 need them.
 * MLB.com, I would assume, is published by the MLB. That should be mentioned.

 ceran  thor 14:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Addressed all. As for the personal life, I've exhausted all literature on Capel. Albacore (talk) 22:14, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - On prose, which is fine. I am still a little uneasy about the lack of content, but I cannot really comment on it fairly.  ceran  thor 23:48, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I went back and looked at the record of teams Capel was on, and added this to the prose. Albacore (talk) 20:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarification: Albacore has formally asked me "Where else does the prose feel light?". I'd just like to make it clear that I feel uncertain that this article is fully comprehensive (for example, the personal life section is ridiculously brief), though I have absolutely no proof that's the case and that should not bar this worthy article from being promoted should the consensus be reached that it should be promoted as an FA. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  ceran  thor  20:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Although consensus appears to be for promotion, support is still light on. You might want to ping Sarastro and Giants and see if they're willing to revisit, given the reviews/work since they were last here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Before supporting, I wanted to see if some of the general issues that had been pointed out in the first FAC had been resolved, since I'm starting to reach the point where I'm too familiar with the text. At this point, I'm satisfied that the article has been improved enough to meet the FA criteria. Since there are a couple of things pointed out above, I feel that I should respond to them. About the lack of content, I think that's a product of this player not having a particularly long career or being well-known. If all of the known information on Capel is in the article (and I think it is), that's all the FA process can ask for. I also noticed that Brian is concerned about the reliability of Retrosheet. We have found that site to be reliable in the past, per User:Ealdgyth/FAC cheatsheet. If the site is still found wanting, Baseball-Reference has box scores here, here, and here that may have the information you need. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 15:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close.  Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the  template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ucucha (talk) 05:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.