Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Miriam Makeba/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2017.

Miriam Makeba

 * Nominator(s): Vanamonde (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC), 

This article is about a musician and activist who who had a lasting impact on music and popular culture in South Africa and abroad. It has been through an extensive rewrite and expansion over the course of this year, and went through a detailed GA review a few months ago. It has been looked over by Midnightblueowl, who is co-nom, and also by Graham87. I feel it is comprehensive, and has used most of the heavyweight sources in this area. All feedback is welcome. Vanamonde (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment – I'm far too close to the article to !vote on this nom, but as an [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Miriam_Makeba&diff=75900433&oldid=73722368 early major contributor] to this page, and a big fan of her work, I can certainly attest that it covers her fascinating life story very comprehensively now, using the best available references. Graham 87 11:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Image review

 * File:Miriam_Makeba_welcome.png: possible to translate the description and source information?
 * File:Miriam_Makeba_(1969).jpg: tag provided at source doesn't match tag provided here. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:58, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for the review. I have asked for help with translation, let's see what comes of that. For the other image; I notice the author name did not match, and I've fixed that; was there another mismatch that I missed? Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes: on our image description page we have a CC BY-SA tag, but I don't see that on the source page - they seem to use a PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:19, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Got it. Does that mean I can simply replace the CC BY-SA tag with the PD tag and state that the source states it is public domain? Or do I need to try to figure out why the source claims it is public domain? Because the latter option seems beyond me. Also, what do you wish me to do with this translation? Copy it into the image description? Vanamonde (talk) 16:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes to the last question. On the first: ideally either we would know why they think it's PD, or we have a PD tag specific to that source (see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Custom_PD_license_tags). Nikkimaria (talk) 17:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, this page seems to suggest that they consider everything in their collection to be PD. This is supported by a document linked on the side, which says that as a matter of principle, everything on the National Archive website is PD, and "made available with a CC0 waiver". Now I am relying on google to translate said document, but it seems quite clear cut to me. I'm not certain what tag this translates to, I'm afraid. I have added the translation to the image documentation. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 05:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * If that is the correct reading a CC0 tag would apply, but I'm not sure whether the "percent open" row indicates that not all of the collection is PD? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:30, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Even if that were the case, our image also carries a PD tag; would that not take care of it? I cannot find any more specific image documentation, so if you are still dissatisfied, I guess I will remove the image. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 14:01, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The image currently has a CC BY-SA tag, which isn't the same as CC0/PD. What about asking the source? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'll ask them, though they haven't edit for three weeks and do not seem very chatty in any case. That wasn't what I was referring, to though; at the source link, there is a PD tag for the image: and I guess I'm asking (since I genuinely don't know) why that, combined with the statement on the archive homepage, isn't good enough for us. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The option there would be to set up a custom PD tag, as we've done for some other libraries and archives. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:21, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I realize I am not making much progress here, but creating such a tag would be well beyond my abilities. Is this something you could help me out with? If it is something that will take a while to do, would you prefer me to remove the image, or to switched the tag for a CC0 tag, as an interim measure? Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 02:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Nationaal-Archief. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Nikkimaria. Image tag updated. Vanamonde (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no comment on the general question. The translation on the "Welcome" image is as follows:
 * "Airport reception for the singer (sic) Miriam Makeba (Jacob Ori at left), 1963."
 * Source of the image is Leora Slutsky (Ori), presumably a relative of Jacob Ori.
 * The other page upon which this image appears is the Hebrew Wikipedia article for "Jacob Ori (Licht)", who was an impresario, and presumably was responsible for bringing Ms. Makeba to Israel for performances. Note that "Ori" is a Hebraization of the Yiddish-German "Licht", meaning "light"; such Hebraization of Yiddish names was pretty common in Israel's pre-State and early State eras. Ori is almost certainly the family name he went by in Israel.
 * I hope this was helpful. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, . Vanamonde (talk) 05:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Support from John

 * Interested in under the apartheid regime, black people were legally prohibited from consuming alcohol. I don't think it was as simple as that; see for example. John (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You may be right. We have multiple sources for that statement, but I do not see any reason for those sources to be mentioning an amendment to the law that occurred later. I have modified the sentence to read "under South African law at the time, black people were legally prohibited from consuming alcohol." Vanamonde (talk) 10:47, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a bit better as obviously apartheid was only brought in post WW2. But the source I found has the "Durban system" bringing in municipal monopolies on alcohol from 1908 and says "In the 1930s even the Witwatersrand abandoned its prohibition policies in favor of the beer hall system." I think this is another interesting data point. --John (talk) 11:04, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's an interesting system, isn't it. My gut feeling is that in addition to racial discrimination there was an interest here in controlling the supply of alcohol, and preventing home-brewing by black people: but I suspect that's a bit too much detail here. Vanamonde (talk) 11:35, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. My feeling is that the article wouldn't be harmed by omitting this detail or perhaps putting it in a footnote. After all, most of us still live in jurisdictions where selling home-brewed beer is illegal. --John (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough: footnote added. Vanamonde (talk) 04:37, 10 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Makeba sang with the Skylarks when the Manhattan Brothers were travelling abroad; later she travelled with them as well. This is ambiguous; does the "them" refer to the Skylarks or the Manhattan Brothers? --John (talk) 22:29, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It was the Manhattans. Clarified.


 * Other than that it is all looking good. I took a few wee hacks at the prose. I created The Skylarks (South African vocal group) to get rid of that irritating red link in the lead. --John (talk) 22:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments,, I've addressed the two points you raised. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 04:37, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I now support the promotion of this candidate, at least on prose. --John (talk) 23:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments Support from Indy beetle
All together a very content-rich article. Glad to see an African biography FAC.
 * "She married Stokely Carmichael, a leader of the Black Panther Party, in 1968: as a result". The colon here seems unnatural. I think it would be better if it was just a period between two sentences.
 * Done


 * "Miriam spent the first six months of her life in jail. As a child, she sang in the choir". Since you end the former clause talking about Makeba's mother, it would be best if you then put Makeba's name in place of the pronoun in the next sentence to avoid confusion.
 * Done


 * "Her talent for singing was remarked upon during her schooldays." "[R]emarked upon" is an ambiguous phrase. The source says "praised", so that or something similar would be better. If there is another source that is more specific (i.e. who was praising her and what did they say) that would be best.
 * I've reworded a little: other sources don't seem to say exactly who did the praising, because her early life has received very little attention. I'll look again, but I'm not hopeful.


 * "and sang in church choirs, in English". I'm no MOS expert, but is that comma proper?
 * I think so? It reads naturally to me


 * "Her mother successfully treated her cancer." How? The source isn't very specific; it only notes that the treatment was "unconventional". Do other sources have more detailed information? I must express my hesitance to believe such a vague claim.
 * You're right. I've removed it pending further support.


 * The Independent article "Miriam Makeba: Singer banned from her native South Africa for fighting apartheid" says the Sunbeams/Skylarks was created by Gallotone Records, but this Wikipedia article reads that she founded the group. The Independent implies that the Skylarks were put together in such a fashion to purposefully not have any "mention of royalties, management or intellectual property" on purpose (this Wikipedia page does mention her lack of royalties). I see that the Al-Ahram Weekly weekly notes she founded the group, but gives less detail. On its face, I'm inclined to believe the Independent; I think the Al-Ahram just summarized too much. At any rate, this discrepancy should be resolved.
 * I would agree with your assessment, and have modified the text accordingly. I suspect Nkrumah meant "founder member", but that's only a guess.


 * The Independent article also says, "In 1953 she recorded her first hit "Laku Tshoni Ilanga" with [the Manhattan Brothers]." This seems relevant to include.
 * Done


 * "The record became the first South African record to chart on the US Billboard Top 100." Seeing as this is the first time the United States has been mentioned in the body of the article, it might be better to list the name instead of the acronym.
 * Done


 * "During its recording, she and Belafonte had a disagreement, after which they stopped recording together." Is there any further information on the nature of this disagreement?
 * I'm afraid the source does not say; most sources don't mention it at all.


 * "Makeba later stated that it was during this period that she accepted the label "Mama Africa"." Any information on the origin of this phrase?
 * I'll dig further, but it seems to have emerged gradually; hard to pinpoint it.


 * "In 1973, she had separated from Carmichael". This should be reworded (the past tense is already stated once), probably by dropping the word "had".
 * The reason for the "had" is that we're jumping back in time, having discussed the Soweto uprising (1976) just before this.


 * "She worked closely with Graça Machel-Mandela, the South African first lady, for children". The phrase "worked...for" is rather vague. Perhaps, if accurate, it could read "worked closely with Graça Machel-Mandela...advocating for children"?
 * Done


 * "and has been described as having a sensuous presence on stage". Seeing as she is now dead, might bit be better to say "and was described"?
 * Done


 * "She wore no makeup and refused to straighten her hair for shows, thus establishing a style that came to be known internationally as the "Afro look"." Was she the first person to do this, or was she just among the earliest to do it? If the latter is true, the text should perhaps read "thus helping to establish a style".
 * Yes, that's probably safer: though the sources do her a fair amount of credit, it would be a really extreme claim to say she was the very first to exhibit this style (and I'm fairly sure she was not).


 * "The prize has been called the "Nobel Prize for Music" in Sweden." This information seems more suited for the article on the Polar Music Prize than here, especially considering the source has nothing to do with Makeba and describes the prize as it was awarded to other artists in 2010.
 * I guess it's there because nobody has heard of the prize and the linked page is inadequate. If you still think it irrelevant, I will remove it.


 * "Google honoured her with a Google Doodle on their homepage." This information needs to be cited and the date on which this occured should be given.
 * It was in fact cited, the citation was just not at the end of the sentence: I've moved the refs there.


 * Citation number 87 [Tobler, John (1992). NME Rock 'N' Roll Years (1st ed.). London: Reed International Books. p. 427. CN 5585.] should be changed to harv sfn style as per FA criteria 2c on consistent citations with the bulk of the reference in the "Bibliography" section and a shortened footnote used as the direct citation. The same goes for citation number 98 [Stanton, Andrea L.; Ramsamy, Edward; Seybolt, Peter J. (2012). Cultural Sociology of the Middle East, Asia, and Africa: An Encyclopedia. SAGE. p. 318. ISBN 978-1-4129-8176-7].
 * Done


 * Citation number 2 [Allen, Lara (2011). "Makeba, Miriam Zenzi". In Akyeampong, Emmanuel K.; Gates, Henry Louis Jr. Dictionary of African Biography. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-985725-8.] refers to the Dictionary of African Biography. This needs to be in harv sfn fashion as well. I recall this book as having page numbers. If these are available, they should also be cited. If not, I recommend using the following citation:.
 * Done.

-Indy beetle (talk) 17:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks: I've addressed your comments. Vanamonde (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Happy to offer my support. Yes, I do believe the comment on the Polar Music Prize should be removed from this article, but other than that all my comments have been addressed. Best of luck! -Indy beetle (talk) 03:33, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Indy beetle. I've removed that particular sentence. Vanamonde (talk) 04:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Sources review
No spotchecks done. In general, subject to the case discussed below, the sources look to be of appropriate quality and reliability. A few issues:
 * Refs 80, 95 and possibly others (check): BBC is not a print source and should not be underlined.
 * I think you mean italicized? In any case, that's what the template does: not sure if I can get around it, or whether I should.
 * I've just gotten around it by replacing  with  . I've also done some other tweaks to the refs for consistency. Graham 87  06:16, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Ref 91: "Tony Hollingsworth" is indicated as the author, but the article is actually written by Peter Elman – Hollingsworth is the publisher. What makes Hollingsworth a reliable source? A lot of the text reads as Hollingsworth promotional material.
 * Fair point, this is some of the little text that predates me. Source replaced.


 * Ref 110: p. should be pp. (per ref 152)
 * Fixed.


 * Ref 144: The title, "Zenzi Benga - the Musical" does not appear in the source. Is this the intended link, or is the title wrong?
 * I'm responsible for adding that ref and I can confirm it was the intended link ... the title of the website seems to have changed along with the title of the musical. Graham 87 14:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In the bibliography, for books you should be consistent about including publisher locations.Brianboulton (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Removed the few that were there.
 * Thanks for the review: your points have been addressed, I think. Vanamonde (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, all is well now. Brianboulton (talk) 17:04, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Comment in regards to spotchecks: I can verify that the information taken from citation 9 [Ewens, Graeme (11 November 2008). "Obituary: Miriam Makeba". The Guardian. Retrieved 26 March 2012] and citation 15 [Lusk, Jon (11 November 2008). "Miriam Makeba: Singer banned from her native South Africa for fighting apartheid". The Independent. Retrieved 12 March 2015] is accurately represented in this article. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:19, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Support from Edwininlondon
(It seemed appropriate to put one of her albums on while reviewing. Big fan.) A very fine article. Just a few nitpicky things I could find:
 * on which Makeba sang for 18 months. -> that is quite a feat
 * yeah, I guess it could be read that way. I've reworded, let me know if it's still an issue


 * described as a "groundbreaking Afropop gem -> attribution would be good
 * Done


 * Touré wanted to create -> Which one? I assume not the president
 * Actually it was the president. Does it still need clarification? He's mentioned by his full name in the previous sentence


 * Her use of the clicks -> link: this is not the first use of clicks
 * True...but it is the first one that's not specifically the song or in quotes, and MOS frowns on links in quotes.


 * Her self-presentation been characterised -> has been? was?
 * Fixed, thanks...


 * and American music." -> I suspect punctuation should be the other way round ". Check whole article for consistency among fragments and whole sentences
 * My understanding is that if the portion quoted ends in a period, then the period should be within the quotes...have I got that wrong? Entirely possible, I could never remember the finer points of grammar, I just go by instinct.
 * I always look it up, but by the time I get back to my edit page I have forgotten it again. Here are two examples from [MOS:LQ]:   Marlin said: "I need to find Nemo."    Marlin needed, he said, "to find Nemo".   Edwininlondon (talk) 15:59, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes sense. I've made the fix, which I think was the last one. Vanamonde (talk) 09:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It debuted in the US with performances in St. Louis, Missouri and at the -> debut happens only once, so a bit of rework is needed here.Edwininlondon (talk) 20:55, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * True. Fixed.
 * Thanks for looking this over: I believe I've addressed your points. Vanamonde (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Pinging you again, since I messed up the previous ping: did you have any further comments? Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 05:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * All fine. I support. Nice work.Edwininlondon (talk) 08:00, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.