Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mistle Thrush/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC).

Mistle Thrush

 * Nominator(s):  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I present to you the Stormcock in "blast-beruffled plume". Europe's largest thrush, named for its favourite fruit, defends its nest against all comers, and is equally vigorous in protecting its holly or mistletoe tree through the winter.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Aa77zz
 * Lede

this photo.
 * "a white chin and throat". The colour is certainly paler than the upperparts but it doesn't look white to me - it looks more buff or pale brown - for example see
 * This description by Ticehurst under First Winter Plumage has: "chin and upper-throat greyish-white, the latter sparsely streaked with small spear-shaped dark markings;" I would be happier with greyish-white - although the spear-shaped markings makes the upper throat look darker. Aa77zz (talk) 18:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The source says "whitish", so greyish white it is  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Description


 * "the chin and throat are white" - see above
 * As above  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * " and the underwings are white" - does underwing mean coverts? The ends of the primaries and secondaries are brown.
 * added coverts  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Voice


 * Does the female sing?
 * Female thrushes (and most other female passerines) don't sing. This is one of those "obvious" facts that the books take for granted. Neither clements nor HBW state this explicitly although it's implied by the functions of the song as described below.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not obvious to a non-specialist that the female in entirely silent. For instance, according to Coward, both the male and female chaffinch make the "pink, pink" call. Aa77zz (talk) 11:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For the Mistle Thrush it might be less obvious as the sexes appear identical. Aa77zz (talk) 11:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Does the male sing to attract a mate?
 * used to advertise his territory, attract a female and maintain the pair bond added with ref  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Distribution and habitat


 * Do migrating birds return to the same territory?
 * Usually, clarified  Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Birds that breed in the north-eastern portion of the range migrate great distances. Do they migrate as a flock? Do they fly at night? Do they stop on the route to feed?
 * This is already mainly in para 2 of distribution, clarified that winter-type habitats also used on migration <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Behaviour


 * How does the behaviour of the Mistle Thrush differ from that of the sympatric Song Thrush?
 * This is a bit of red herring. The sympatricty of the Song Thrush is only mentioned because of its superficially similar appearance. There are other sympatric Turdus thrushes like Blackbird, Redwing and Fieldfare plus others in Asia, and it's unrealistic to compare all these species (although they are probably all fairly similar) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Breeding


 * Is there a courtship routine?
 * Other than the song, I have been unable so far to find any indication of display <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Found an obscure mention of courtship feeding <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Are the birds monogamous?
 * yes, added with ref <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do the male and female remain together outside the breeding season?
 * as above, if they remain on territory <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do the male and female migrate together?
 * It's very unlikely that they stay together, but I can't find anything explicit on this <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Does the pair bond last from one year to the next?
 * Yes, added <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Is the second brood in the same nest?
 * sometimes, added with ref <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "the male feeding the first brood while the female sits on the second clutch." -> "the male feeding the fledgling from the first brood while the female sits on the second clutch."
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * For how long after leaving the nest do the parents feed the young?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Status


 * "European population is estimated at 9–22.2 million birds" - presumably this is the breeding population in Europe - in the winter these birds are joined by those from Asia.
 * Clarified <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * References


 * 13 Snow & Perrins should be pp. 1230-1234 (not 1334)
 * Ooops. Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I may return later with more comments (or questions). Aa77zz (talk) 15:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, all done so far <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Two more small points:
 * When do the birds first breed?
 * Year after hatching, added with ref <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Coward Birds of the British Isles and their eggs was published in 1920. A (scan is available from the Internet Archive). The page numbers tally. I cannot find a 1930 edition. One possible OCLC for the 1920 volumes is 2129580. Aa77zz (talk) 11:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My copy is the 1930 reprint of the 1928 third edition, I've added the edition number. Should I change the date to 1928? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the 1928 date would be preferable. The oclc for the 3rd edition is 4279233. In general adding the edition is important as the content as well as the pagination may change. In this particular case the total pages in the book and the page range of the article are identical to those in the first edition. The article in the first edition also fully supports your text. This suggests that the differences between the editions may be small. From looking at Worldcat it appears that the second edition was published in 1923, the third in 1928 and the fourth in 1933. Aa77zz (talk) 09:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * changed to 1928 and added OCLC <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Another comment - I've sorry that I'm dragging out my review. The article has "The survival rate for juveniles in their first year is 57 per cent, and the adult annual survival rate is 62 per cent." The numbers in this sentence seem surprisingly precise as in all probability the rates vary considerably for different parts of the range. The cite is to the BTO web page which in turn cites the very technical paper by Siriwardena et al 1998 "Variation in the survival rates of some British passerines with respect to their population trends on farmland". (The numbers come from Appendix 1 on p.291). I suggest that you specify that the numbers come from a particular study in Britain: "In a study carried out in Britain..." or something similar. Aa77zz (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem, you are hardly getting trampled in the rush (: Amended text as suggested <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sufficiently skilled at writing to be very constructive in judging the prose. The article needs a more experienced reviewer. I've made a few small copy edits to the article and I'm listing here some further points that you might like to look at.
 * "It feeds on a wide variety of invertebrates, seeds and berries, its preferred fruits including those of the mistletoe, holly and yew." Clunky?
 * Split as two sentences <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "It has a stocky upright posture when on the ground, and the sexes appear similar." Comma splice?
 * Split and move similarity to later in text <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "The eastern subspecies T. v. bonapartei is slightly larger on average than the nominate form, at 30 cm (11.8 in) in length." clunky?
 * rejigged sentence <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Adults will roam up to 1 km (1000 yd) from the nest on pasture or ploughed land, and they may be accompanied by their fledged young until the onset of winter." Comma splice? It may be better as two sentences: "Adults will roam up to 1 km (1000 yd) from the nest on pasture or ploughed land. After fledging the young may accompany their parents until the onset of winter."
 * As suggested <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The "In culture" section contains a series of bullet points rather than flowing prose but I cannot see how this can be avoided.
 * Each of the facts is notable enough, but there is no other obvious link between each fact. Sometimes it's possible to get more coherence to an "in culture section", but in this case it's not feasible <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The article makes frequent use of the demonstrative this in places that seem odd to me. For example, the third sentence of the lead starts "This is a large thrush with pale...". In the Description section, "This thrush has pale grey-brown upperparts...". In the Distribution and habitat section: "Between mid-October and November, numbers of this thrush cross the Strait of Gibraltar..." This is only a sample - there are other instances. Aa77zz (talk) 22:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose I was trying to avoid repetitions of the bird's name or "it". I think I've fixed all I could find <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

The sources all appear to be suitably reliable and there are no obvious formatting issues.

Support - The article is comprehensive and well written. Another great article - I look forward to reviewing the next one. Aa77zz (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for support and kind words. Mother Carey's Chicken is a loooong way from ready <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Image check: All good. LittleJerry (talk) 15:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jerry


 * Comments from Crisco
 * "In culture section is very stubby looking
 * A point made by the previous reviewer, without any obvious means of fixing. Usually I can find a thread to link notable cultural facts, but there is nothing obvious here. I'm reluctant to take out the facts, but there is no other solution I can see <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * tweaked a bit, any better? <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks better now, yes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * make birdlime for trapping birds. - Other birds, I should assume?
 * birdlime is indiscriminate, it traps what lands on it. The fact that the thrush may itself be a victim is the reason for the Latin proverb. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Vatican - Avoid Easter eggs
 * I thought that the palace was probably better known as the Vatican, but now unpiped <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * When I hear "Vatican" I think "Vatican City" or "Holy See" first. Might be different for everyone. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * are based on obsolete names for the holly tree, which may be defended in winter for its berries. - Defended by what? Implicit, yes, but not clear
 * clarified <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * common breeding bird - what's this mean? I'm assuming all birds breed. Also, I think the wording "common to much of ..." would be better
 * as suggested <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * More later. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * thanks for comments so far <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Systema naturae - Should probably be linked, we've even got an article on that particular edition. Note that "Naturae" is capital in its article.
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * rufous - what's this mean? A link?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * football rattle - do we have a link to this item itself?
 * No, I might knock out a stub if I get time <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What's the female sound like?
 * In response to the previous reviewer, I tried to make it clear that only the male sings (as with all thrushes), now tweaked to clarify that the other vocalisations are given by both sexes <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Any reason for the growth in range?
 * Although there are several possibilities, basically no one knows. I've said that now. Blackbirds made a similar but much earlier shift to more open habitats. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Continue tomorrow I think (just have two sections left) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nominate Turdus viscivorus viscivorus - Should this be T. v. viscivorus since you already gave a full trinomial?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sikkim - Link?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * the south and east - of?
 * its range, added <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * except in Siberia, - more or fewer?
 * fewer, clarified <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 21 years and 3 months for a bird shot in Switzerland. - how the heck do they measure that? Also, what is the median age, if you have the information?
 * added that it's from bird ringing. No median available, although there is no reason to suppose that the typical longevity elsewhere differs greatly from the three years referenced for Britain <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Otherwise looks solid — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:22, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support from Crisco 1492. Solid article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments by FunkMonk (talk) 13:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Could a photo more be placed in the description section to give a visual impression, perhaps from a different angle? The one in the taxobox is a bit annoying, due to overlap by a branch, and we have more ok images on Commons.
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "described from an Essex specimen" Specimen collected in/from Essex? Seems a bit "esoteric" now.
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "A molecular study identified" Link? Same for "radiation".
 * Both done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The description section starts out as a general description of the species, but then goes on to say that other subspecies differ from the previous description. This would indicate the detailed description is only covering the nominate subspecies, which should be mentioned if so.
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "fluted whistles, chewee-trewuu ... trureetruuruu" fluted whistles, sounding like?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "wide range of habitats containing some trees" "Some" seems redundant.
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Early nests may be destroyed by bad weather." What is meant by early nest?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "There are normally two broods, except in Siberia," Why?
 * Source just states it as a fact. You would assume (OR) that the breeding season is limited by the hard winters (I doubt that they could nest in Siberia in February, as they may do in the UK), but I can't find anything that spells this out) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "important in propagating the mistletoe," Link?
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - That was quick! FunkMonk (talk) 13:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for support (benefit of early rising in terms of replies) <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  14:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Image review - All images are fine source and license-wise. FunkMonk (talk) 13:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Support - was very impressed when I read this article. Excellent preparation, comprehensive and informative. I judge that this exceeds the FA criteria. Great work, !--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for support and kind words! <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  14:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * comments - taking a look now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC) Support on comprehensiveness and prose - can't find anything to improve Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tweak to the text and your support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  14:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Is Coward 1928 or 1930?
 * Done, 1928 <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Why is the BTO acronym included on its second appearance in citations but not its first or third?
 * Added to both <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Why not include both authors for Cocker short cite, as you did for Brown? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Done, added Mabey <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 03:42, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.