Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2017.

Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125

 * Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

With peace and joy, Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125, is another cantata by J. S. Bach, for the first time a chorale cantata. The idea grew discussing what we can do about celebrating 500 years Protestant Reformation. My 2ct: this article on music by Bach who set a text by a contemporary poet who included and paraphrased Luther who paraphrased Simeon's canticle which is part of the prescribed gospel for Purification, 2 February. With such a great story, I was surprised that it's rather a work not published and recorded often. - The article received a GA review by Sainsf in April. I went over it, moving Mincham to external links (as Brianboulton advised) and checking for double links (as Tim would have done). - Previous cantatas didn't rely so much on other articles (look for "Main"), - I am a bit unsure how much from them needs to be taken on board, tried to include a bit but am open to suggestions about less or more. Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Restart
Old nomination I think we need a another look at the old nomination had got a little bogged down; new eyes and a fresh start might be the best way forward. We haven't used restarts at FAC for a long time, but they were formerly used relatively frequently and are very effective in cases like this one. For those who are new to them, this is effectively a fresh start and the nomination has been moved back to the top of the list. Any questions on the process can be raised here, on my talk page, or at WT:FAC, but I think this is the best route forward. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:33, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * This is new to me, thank you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with this approach for this long-running review -- I was still a bit leery of promotion but I don't think much would've been gained from a standard archive and two-week wait either. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Support from Iadmc
Support with minor quibbles: perhaps we don't need quite so much background as that is covered in other articles which can be linked from this one? And we don't need the other Lutheran hymns here, do we? They don't really seem relevant. I did a little cleanup of overlinks, too: e.g. Lutheran etc. Great candidate otherwise! Listening via Spotify helps... — Iadmc  ♫ talk  23:54, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to add, my tools (WPC, in this case) found an incorrectly formatted hidden comment: now corrected. No other issues — Iadmc  ♫ talk  00:16, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made the section about other chorale cantatas into a table. Is that better? 69.165.196.103 (talk) 15:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Comments by AustralianRupert
G'day, Gerda, nice work. Definitely not a topic I know much about, but hopefully some of these comments will help: AustralianRupert (talk) 11:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Overall, it looks well referenced, but a couple of areas looked unreferenced to me:
 * in the section titled "Luther's hymns", the paragraph beginning "Bach composed an early chorale cantata..."
 * added the ref which probably got lost in copy-editing --GA
 * in the section titled "Luther's hymns", the third last and final lines of the table
 * third last is the cantata the article is about, the other the same as the one mentioned above, but I repeated the ref anyway --GA


 * there appear to be a few duplicate links that might need to be reduced: Bach's elary cantatas, Trinity Sunday, Bible (King James/Luke#2:31, alto, bass (voice type), Alfred Durr, arioso
 * I removed most, but not alto and bass in the scoring section, where consistently (over cantata articles) all instruments and voices are linked, - it just happens here that they were mentioned also before. --GA


 * anyway, all the best with this FAC
 * Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:02, 13 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Support: happy with the changes made or clarifications. Good luck with the remainder of the review. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Peacemaker67
I am unfamiliar with this subject, so please excuse me if I don't understand some of the technical stuff.
 * Thank you for looking, appreciated! --GA


 * link canticle in the lead despite WP:SEAOFBLUE, it needs a link
 * It had a link, which was removed at the request of earlier comments. Now what? --GA


 * link Sheet music#full score for "scored" (or another better link, I really am not sure what is best).
 * "scored" is derived from score, but means particlular which voices and instruments are assigned to perform the music, so the lead to "full score" seems not so helpful, perhaps to Instrumentation (music)? --GA


 * some instruments in the lead should probably be linked, eg flauto traverso
 * We have about 200 articles on Bach cantatas, which consistently avoid another see of blue in the lead by linking summarily Baroque instruments in lead and infobox, while all instruments are linked in the section about them. --GA


 * "The opening chorus has been compared to" in what ways is it similar? If this is worth stating in the lead, the why is also needed.
 * It is worth stating because the St Matthew Passion is a piece many readers will know, while this cantata is rather unknown. These readers will immediately recall the mood of the piece. For the others, I'm afraid, even a long explanation would not help much. There was a longer comparison in the section about the movement, but shortened because the source for the long version was considered not so reliable. - We can think about making that longer again, based on different sources. --GA


 * Thomanerchor is sufficiently obscure to a lay reader that it probably needs to be pointed out this is a boy's choir
 * Would people for whom it's obscure know that boy's choir means not "only boys" but "only male singers, boys for the higher voices", which was the normal thing at the time? We have a link, for those who don't know that well into the 19th century many claimed that women should be silent in church. It's a cultural thing not specific for this cantata. Our choir had women only from 1899. --GA


 * Christ lag in Todes Banden could do with a translation, as could other hymn titles in German that are not translated
 * I would like to hear other voices to that question. All have links (where you'll find a translation), all are long, some don't mean a thing because it's simply the first line, usually not a full sentence, - and all not relevant for this cantata. --GA


 * link Metre (music)
 * done, also Metre (poetry), thank you! --GA


 * Advent and Luke 2:31 are overlinked
 * Advent done, - the other is simply the source, which readers may want to look up without going back to where it was also mentioned, I think. --GA

That's me done, for what it's worth. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That is raising good questions, open for discussion, especially about the comparison to the passion. Thank you.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments and support by Edelseider
I love Bach so thank you for asking me to have a look at your article. I have yet only read it superficially and intend to read it with more concentration later. However, I was struck by: --Edelseider (talk) 13:06, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "The score for the first movement was first published by Diabelli around 1835 with a Latin text, Da pacem nobis Domine." Is this the Diabelli of the Diabelli Variations? If yes, you should link to him (and maybe add a sentence on the Beethoven connexion, if there is any).


 * Thank you, good point. I wasn't sure because it just said Diabelli, but found and added a better ref which has Ant. Diabelli, so am pretty sure it's the one. I linked him, but think to insert Beethoven would be a bit far-fetched. Even the mentioning of other cantatas on Luther hymns has been criticised by some as not relevant to this cantata. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Another point: "The autograph score is lost, its last documented owner being Christian Friedrich Prenzel." As a reader, I feel that this is a bit short on interesting informations. In what year exactly was that documented, and in what place? And who is Christian Friedrich Prenzel? How did he become the owner of the score? --Edelseider (talk) 18:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Feel free to find out and add, I am sorry not to more than this source offers, added his years of birth and death though ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I've looked at the source and the name is Christian Friedrich Penzel, not Prenzel. It is this guy: Christian Friedrich Penzel. I am sorry, but that section needs a bit of reworking! --Edelseider (talk) 08:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for finding him, inspite of my spelling error, - a added a bit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Good. I have no other remarks and support the promotion. --Edelseider (talk) 09:02, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Support by Dr. Blofeld
Support Looks sound enough to me and meets FA criteria. Happy Birthday Bach!♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:23, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments and support by Michael Goodyear
Support: Minor suggestions to follow later. Nominator is recognised as a consistent high quality contributor on Bach cantatas (including the preceding and succeeding cantatas in the cycle) in both German and English. Looks good. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 03:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Specifically since Gerda has a number of other Bach cantatas that are FA I should defer to her on the general structure and approach, because consistency is important. My comments are just suggestions. Michael Goodyear (talk)
 * For example, from this cycle - Christ lag in Todes Banden, BWV 4


 * Since Infobox, Lead and Body are essentially independent, I prefer to link them as such. There would be a great advantage to having a consistent format across the cantata cycle! Don't be afraid of hats.
 * I don't think I understand "link them as such". --GA
 * Add links to each on their own merits - dont worry about overlinking based on link in text. I see all instruments linked in some boxes --Michael Goodyear (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Ahh. In the lead and the infobox, there's a general lead to Baroque instruments. The links to the single instruments are of little use, kept only in the scoring section, intentionally so. They should not appear on FA level. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:37, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Infobox: I saw someone on the talk page wanted the Infobox removed (there are some in the music community who don't like them). I support them but like some of the other cantatas I would link it. The question of images is interesting - would a special infobox for all cantatas be better? The German version uses the bachhande image as a unifier. It looks to me that you are using a bach composition infobox, the German uses a bachkantate infobox. You can still use the other image elsewhere.
 * The infobox removal request wasn't serious, just bait that didn't work ;) - ? - Seriously: who want to waste time arguing about infoboxes? - Special infobox? We made Bach composition first, by now I almost think musical composition would also fit, - the more general the less maintenance. - The image should be special, for the work. - The composer shown systematically in German is decades too old ;) - We just had the discussion on the Piano Concerto No. 24 NOT to show the composer's all too familiar image (painted after his death). Click through the concertos (per navbos) to see how the images try to show the flavour of the piece, if available, or at least the composer in the period. --GA
 * ps: I see that in German, they don't show the old composer anymore, just a crop of his hands, - but would be stereotype as well. - Mozart's operas used to have the same image, - I prefer the new looks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Background: With foreign languages I prefer to place the English first and place german in parentheses, thus Choirmaster or Cantor (Thomaskantor). Also it would make much more sense to start with the church! for instance:

In 1723, Bach was appointed as music director to the Church of St Thomas (Thomaskirche) and its school in Leipzig, where he held the titles of Choirmaster (Thomaskantor) of the St. Thomas' Boy's Choir (Thomanerchor).
 * The church? The job included responsibility for four churches, two of them major, - they just couldn't call him Thomas-Nikolai-Peter-Matthäus-Kantor, and Kantor is much more than choirmaster, more church music director, as explained.
 * But the name derives from the church. A non Bach specialist would be quite confused.
 * I come from Kafka, where we decided to have the original title first, then translate. We have about 200 articles on Bach's cantatas, some of them FA, - I would not like to change the format for this one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that's what I was looking for - if there are other FA Bach cantata pages - nobody can fault you for following the format. Anyway I'm only making suggestions!
 * We can't clarify enough - and perhaps should do even more - that he was NOT employed by any church body, but by the town of Leipzig. The term Thomaskantor is nice and short but downright misleading. We have a long article, linked, to explain that. --GA
 * You need to be consistent with italics - I fixed a few - what about Table? And what does Repeated refer to in the table? --Michael Goodyear (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you saying italics for Cantatas - not for hymns - usually it is for foreign languages
 * And what about Latin - sometimes in italics others not eg nunc dimittis
 * Latin incipits like Requiem, Magnificat, Nun dimittis became part of the English language. --GA
 * OK it looks like most of my ideas have already been tried and rejected by someone!
 * "the idea is to say that each of the nine was made to one cantata, - can you find a better way?"
 * Actually that is exactly what I was trying to say - the other way is ambiguous.


 * "Bach used nine hymns by Luther as the basis for a chorale cantata"
 * Bach used a hymn by Luther as the basis for a cantata on nine occasions
 * Very good, taken. --GA
 * Did Bach really have a "career"?! Are those the only examples - that is what it sounds like.
 * That was not my wording, but I try to keep suggestions if possible. --GA
 * Where did per omnes versus come from - you will need to explain it
 * It is explained right afterwards: "in all stanzas". --GA
 * There is a comment about people who don't know which could be many - the article may be too technical
 * Readings
 * You should probably explain Marian
 * Purification should be explained
 * "Feast of the Purification, (German: Mariae Reinigung)" - I'm confused - German first or last ?
 * Mariae Reinigung is the old term of Bach's time, that nobody uses anymore, - it's only added here for people who read a German source, also it's the literal translation for Purification of Mary. I would explain Marian and Purification if the purification aspect, or Mary, would be of any relevance for Bach's music, but he stayed with the canticle part of the gospel. - Two users who are not too familiar with the topic copy-edited without requesting more explanations. --GA
 * Should't you use German title of hymn? Somewhere you need to compare the Lutheran text with the biblical - now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace according to thy word.
 * That is done in the hymn's article.
 * Thank you for good questions, - I hope that can stay patient answering some again and again ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:37, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This is very detailed, and technical. Every time I read last stanza or second line I feel the need for having the full text in German and English in front of me - such as on the matching hymn page
 * I don't think the full text of the English would be needed if we didn't have the article on the hymn. We could make "last stanza" a link to the last stanza in the hymn article, or at least to text and translation, - would that help? --GA
 * But there is a lot more text in the cantata than in the hymn


 * Should text quotes like light for the heathen always be accompanied by original German Licht für die Heiden?
 * For whom? --GA
 * I'm pointing out an inconsistency - sometimes both texts appear but not always
 * Sorry I was brief, I had no time. Back now. - So: there are German terms that need to be in German, such as the cantata title etc., but things that are perfectly well understood in English don't need to be accompanied by an equivalent, I'd say. -GA
 * Thomaskirche. This is the first mention of this church - maybe it should be introduced earlier since it gives its name to school and choir. Will think about naming the four churches then where Thomaskantor is explained, but am on my way out for now. --GA
 * For most English speakers the text of the Nunc dimittis is well known in its church usage in English since the reformation

"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace according to thy word. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; To be a light to lighten the Gentiles and to be the glory of thy people Israel"

which is rather different to an English translation of Luther's hymn, and may be worth quoting as the original source.
 * I don't know if Luther spoke any English. His source was Latin. - This article is about Bach's music, for Luther's text was the basis and inspiration. The other would rather be to be considered for the hymn article. The English passage is linked wherever Luke 2 appears, and if needed that can come more often. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sure he didn't!
 * Movements
 * Is it important to differentiate Richard Jones as a musicologist, compared to Hoffman and Durr?
 * No, good point, that probably predates him having an article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 2. it is unclear what the text of the aria is - is it only the phrase Ich will auch mit gebrochnen Augen? The way the text is stated in the other movements is clearer.
 * For all cantata texts: the ref behind the English leads to the (for me best) translation, which is copyrighted, so we can't quote it completely. But a bit more will do, thanks for pointing that out. --GA
 * 4. Similar. If the entire text is Ein unbegreiflich Licht erfüllt den ganzen Kreis der Erden. Es schallet kräftig fort und fort. It would be better to state that that the outset (or use the table - perhaps better), otherwise it looks as if you are only commenting on excepts
 * Of course they are only excerpt or rather incipits. It would be a long article with the complete and very baroque text. The text is several sources in German, in other several in English, and in Oron (Bach-Cantatas) in a few more language. --GA
 * 6. Unclear what Jones summarises means. Book does not help. Why not Jones comments....., since discussing his book is not the point of the article
 * This part was called "reception", but I found (so far) only that summary, and a reviewer who didn't accept a paragraph for only one sentence. I said "summarize" to clarify that it is not only about movement 6 but the complete work. - Better suggestions welcome. At time it closed the lead, but was not wanted there either. --GA
 * I realise a full text is provided in Dellal (1) but one would never know that from this article
 * How would one not know to look at a reference? --GA
 * Bibliography
 * The standard for En WP is Google.com, please change from .de - readers in Germany will be automatically switched to .de in any case
 * good point, changed --GA
 * Theology (Liturgy)
 * Since this was composed for a very specific occasion and Bach was a religious man, whether a brief note on the significance of the occasion and how the text and music complement is in order
 * Musicologically and liturgicologically speaking, the Nunc dimittis originated as a Sequence sung before the Gospel, at least till the Council of Trent. Luther was critical of these from a liturgical viewpoint and set about replacing them with vernacular hymns, hence Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, although this departed more from the original than his other treatment of sequences. Because of its other subtext of departure, Luther also included it in Funeral responsories. I am not sure if its current use as an evening hymn was known to Bach. The other use of the departure symbol was to sing it at the end of the service, to signify the departure of the people.(see Robin Leaver: Luther's Liturgical Music)
 * Very interesting but more for Luther and liturgy than this cantata, no? - While the Magnificat was sung on high feast days (in Latin), I know nothing similar yet about the Nunc dimittis. The cantata (no substitute for the canticle, just on the same topic) was performed next to the sermon, - when in two parts (but this isn't) before and after the sermon, in a morning service. On the high holidays, there was a service in the morning in one church, in the afternoon in the other, same cantata, - more about that in BWV 40. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Bach may well have known that in his time the Nunc dimittis was used in the service of Compline in the Roman rite. But the real question is what was Bach saying with this cantata in relation to the Feast day. It might also be worth mentioning that he composed several other (three that I can think of) cantatas for Mariae Reinigung, including Ich habe genug. Also Luther placed Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin at the end of Vespers (Edward Traill Horn, Theodosius Harnack. Outline of Liturgics) One could spend a lot of time on this aspect! A Cantata written to celebrate new life that is often grouped into his "death" cantatas because it deals with the peaceful acceptance of the end of life, with bold harmonic regions acknowledging the momentous nature of life’s passing :)
 * Inviting! - Back to practical - and I just re-read at the top of the page that a reviewer thinks there's too much background: We could mention that the previous year, he had composed Erfreute Zeit im neuen Bunde, BWV 83, but I would not like to speak about Ich habe genug, BWV 82 which was not yet written, and has a complicated history of its own, - just click on Purification in the table to see them all together, or any of the other occasion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That often happens - one reviewer wants more - others want less - in the end you are in charge ;) --Michael Goodyear (talk) 19:59, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Support

Comments and support by Yunshui
A few suggestions on the general wording:
 * "and is also known as Candlemas" would read better, to my mind.
 * taken, thank you --GA


 * implies all cantatas are based on one hymn; for clarity, consider "cantatas based on related Lutheran hymns"
 * The chorale cantatas are on ONE hymn. --GA


 * It's not completely clear from the wording here whether the responsibilities described are connected to the role of Thomaskantor or were things Bach was already responsible for prior to his appointment. The linked article at Thomaskantor suggests the former, but it could be read either way in this article.
 * I added a bit, please check and rephrase if needed. --GA


 * Without the translation, this reads "during tempus clausum of Advent and Lent", which sounds a bit odd without the definite article. Perhaps "during the closed period (tempus clausum) of Advent and Lent"?
 * tried --GA


 * the way this is phrased makes it appear that the phrase "known as his first cantata cycle" applies to "all of these liturgical events". Perhaps, "new works for almost all of these liturgical events; these works are known as his first cantata cycle" or something similar?
 * tried --GA


 * this is really hard to parse; I'm assuming it means that the local minister based his choice of hymns upon the prescribed readings and plans for sermons, but it's very unclear. I would suggest, "The choice of hymns to use in the series of chorale cantatas was probably made according to the wishes of a local minister, who based these choices upon the prescribed readings and his plans for sermons" or better still "The choice of hymns to use in the series of chorale cantatas was probably made according to the wishes of a local minister, based upon the prescribed readings and his plans for sermons".
 * I replaced "himself" by "his choice", is that better? (Actually did so before I read the question.) --GA


 * This is a bit wordy and confusing, I'd suggest adding the word "comprising" before "nine new compositions"
 * done, and a bit more explanation --GA


 * "per omnes versus" could uses a bit of explanation for non-Latin readers.
 * the explanation (for all stanzas) follows, - can you perhaps word that unmistakenly? --GA


 * should "the" not be capitalised?
 * this is also a bit hard to parse - I read it as, "one can anticipate one's own death using the method of seeing things from Simeon's persepctive", as though "Simeon's perspective" is some sort of augury. I'm fairly sure that isn't what it's supposed to mean...
 * help wanted, and that sentence had many versions already. His model of facing death is to face it in joy and peace. How can we say that? --GA


 * that seems a bit prescriptive, especially since the source only says "circa 24 minutes". You'd need a hell of a conductor to get it bang on 1440 seconds every single time!
 * That's another sentence changed often (I started with "given", and I think is of rather little importance ;) --GA


 * I can kind of figure out what an autograph score might be, but a piped link to Music manuscript (where the term is actually defined) would probably be helpful to many readers.
 * done --GA


 * Just as a general note for the article as a whole: should the quotations in German not be in italics, per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC?
 * Poems and songs in quotation, which separates them enough not to need italics on top. --GA

Overall it's a nice piece of work - perhaps a bit technical for my non-musician's mind (I had to follow a lot of wikilinks!) but coherent, extensive and interesting. Yunshui 雲 水 14:56, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I adjusted to most and left you two phrasing questions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:28, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Cool. With regards to the "Simeon's perspective" line, here are a few options off the top of my head: "The second movement, based on Luther's second stanza:
 * ...focuses on how Simeon's perspective exemplifies an appropriate model for facing one's own death."
 * ...uses Simeon's approach to death as an exemplary model."
 * ...establishes Simeon's approach to death as a model for listeners to follow."
 * ...is concerned with how one should approach one's death, and uses Simeon's perspective (with joy and peace) as a model example.
 * Hopefully there's something helpful there.
 * I'm unsure about your argument on the italics; I guess it comes down to a question of why italics are used (is it specifically to differentiate German text from English text, or is it a stylistic requirement?). It's not a deal breaker for me, though; I prefer my foreign languages in italics but that's just a personal quirk. Regardless, this gets my Support for promotion to FA. Yunshui 雲 水 15:44, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: I'm not sure we need an image and source review as these were covered in the nomination before the restart, but I just checked and I think there was still an issue over the FUR for the sound samples. One way or another, I think that needs sorting before this is promoted. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:26, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * What do people think of no sound files if they cause headaches? Calling John especially who kindly made them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment: John has removed the audio samples, so I think we are clear, and we certainly have consensus to promote. Thanks to everyone for their patience on this one. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:38, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.