Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Muhammad I of Granada/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2018.

Muhammad I of Granada

 * Nominator(s): HaEr48 (talk) 02:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

This article is about Muhammad I (1195–1273), the founder of the Emirate of Granada, the last Muslim state in Spain. I've been working on it, relying on multiple scholarly sources. I nominated it for GA successfully, and then put it for a peer review and addressed all the feedback. Would appreciate an FA review on this. HaEr48 (talk) 02:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Procedural note -- hi, per FAC instructions, any open peer review should be closed before nominating here; pls close the peer review if you're going to proceed with this nom. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:27, 21 July 2018 (UTC).
 * Thanks, I closed it just now. The peer review has been inactive for a while, I forgot it hadn't been formally closed. HaEr48 (talk) 06:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

 Comments Support from Serial Number 54129
 * I might come back to this later, but a couple of brief remarks for now—a couple of things just stand out on a first read.
 * It's thorough, no doubt, and extremely interesting. The main thing regarding content is his death, including the end of his life. Do we have any more on this? And there's a little repetition ("He was succeeded by his son and designated successor Muhammad II", cf. "By the time of his death, Muhammad I had already secured the succession for his son, also named Muhammad").
 * I'll read up the sources to see if they have more. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I checked the sources and unfortunately I can't find more information about the end of his life. Re the repetition, is it that both sentence name his successor and the fact that it's secured before his death? IMO, in this case the duplicated information is not that much and it's reiterating important info in a new section, so I don't think it's necessarily bad. What do you think? HaEr48 (talk) 04:07, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Repetition in the lede too: "the last independent Muslim state on the Iberian Peninsula" / "during this period was to be Spain's last Muslim state".
 * Removed the second phrase. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Refs—fn.13, check the dash; Harvey 1992 / Miranda 1970 / Watt 2007 needs page nos for their chapters; Henri Terrasse should swap places with Watt.
 * Fixed the dash, page numbers, and order of Terrasse vs Watt. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "unresolved in 1273, when Muhammad", lose the comma;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "One of the taifa leader" needs pluralizing, as does "seven month into the siege of Jaén";
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Alfonso was more interested other" needs an "in";
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "to discuss extension of the 1246 truce"—an extension or extending;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "He declared himself to be vassal of"—declared himself vassel of / declared himself the vassel of;
 * I think you mean "vassal", SN. - Dank (push to talk) 10:33, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Initially the rebellion went well"—comma after initially;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "much larger than what was paid before the rebellion"—had been paid;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "appointment as leader of Arjona in 1232, and helped "—lose the comma;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Both families were intermarried"—unnecessary "were", comma after intermarried;
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Muhammad's own hometown of Arjona"—superflous "own";
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "At the beginning, he displayed"—In the?
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serial Number 54129 (talk • contribs)
 * Do you have more feedback on this nomination? HaEr48 (talk) 03:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Comment from RetiredDuke - I've only skimmed through since it's so early into the nomination, but can you choose one of Málaga/Malaga and Almería/Almeria and commit to it? It's distracting to read. RetiredDuke (talk) 15:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have more feedback on this article? HaEr48 (talk) 08:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure. I have only a couple of (very) minor points:
 * Shouldn't "Portugal" in the lead take the reader to Kingdom of Portugal rather than the modern state of Portugal?
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe link suzerainty? I think it is an uncommon enough word to warrant linking.
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * " Contemporary sources disagree about the cause of this hostility: The Christian..." - any reason for the uppercase "the"?
 * Fixed. Maybe it was originally its own sentence but then someone added the preface and forgot to update the capitalization. HaEr48 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In the "rise to power" section, link the first mention of Ramadan to Ramadan? I know I seem to be focusing on linking too much, but I think these couple could be useful to readers who are not that familiar with medieval/Islamic practices. Overall, the article reads very well and seems comprehensive to a layperson like me. RetiredDuke (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for your feedback. Making sure it's accessible for a layperson is an important goal for me, but I forgot sometimes. So thanks for pointing those out! HaEr48 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Image review

 * Why include the same image twice?
 * The first one is a cropped image, as a lead image for illustrating how the person was depicted, the second one is the non-cropped image to illustrate the Mudejar revolt (which is discussed in that section). Is this not appropriate? HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's necessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:48, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Replaced by another image. HaEr48 (talk) 20:32, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Suggest scaling up the southern Spain map
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * File:Castilla_1210.png needs a US PD tag. Same with File:Alhamar,_rey_de_Granada,_rinde_vasallaje_al_rey_de_Castilla,_Fernando_III_el_Santo_(Museo_del_Prado).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Dank

 * "he became known for his charisma": Not at FAC, please. It's true that even reliable sources say from time to time that a person was loved by everyone, but by itself, the statement means nothing, and is often suspect. - Dank (push to talk) 18:41, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Removed "his charisma". HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "Ibn al-Ahmar, and had the kunya Abu Abdullah": Ibn al-Ahmar or Abu Abdullah (father of Abdullah)
 * Changed to "Ibn al-Ahmar or by his kunya Abu Abdullah". I don't want to include "father of Abdullah" because it's unclear if he is really a father of someone called Abdullah - people often use kunya that's not really based on his son's name. See Kunya (Arabic). HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "In the north of the peninsula there were several Christian kingdoms: Castile, León (in a union with Castile since 1231)": First question: what's the time frame of the narrative at this point, before or after 1231?
 * As stated in the beginning of the section, this section lays out the political situation in the early 13th century. Leon's union with Castile happened in the middle of this timeframe, that's why I noted the union. HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "decided to declare": Does this mean something different than "declared"? If so, what? - Dank (push to talk) 20:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Changed to just "declared"


 * "Alfonso was more interested other in enterprises": ?
 * Sorry it should be "in other enterprises". Changed now. HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "Rachel Arié ... María Jesús Rubiera Mata": Not at FAC, please. These work fine as a signal to other editors that stubs need to be created on en.wp ... so, create the stubs.
 * Created the stubs. HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "of to": of
 * Fixed. HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "was succeeded by his son and designated successor": One or the other can go.
 * I feel those two convey different information. Changed to "He was succeeded by his son Muhammad II as he had planned". HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. Well done. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:24, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the copyediting, the feedback and the support. I've made changes according to your feedback above. HaEr48 (talk) 05:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, your changes look good. - Dank (push to talk) 13:07, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

From FunkMonk

 * Looks interesting, will review soon. At first glance, I wonder if the full image will look more appealing in the infobox? It seems a shame to crop artwork that is really not that much bigger in its full version.
 * IMO, with the full image it's not easy to point out which man is the subject of the article. But if other editors are recommending the full image I won't mind deferring to that opinion. HaEr48 (talk) 17:34, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Looked fine to me when I tested, as long as you increase the size and make it clear he is on the left with the red shield, but no big deal. In any case, you use redundant parameters "| image = File:" File is not needed. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


 * There is some duplinking, try this script to highlight them:
 * Removed some duplinks. I kept some, mostly first non-lead mention and those links that shows up in image captions. HaEr48 (talk) 04:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You should link al-Andalus at first mention outside the intro, and reiterate it refers to Islamic Iberia. Perhaps even state when the Islamic invasion occurred for context.
 * Linked at reiterated the meaning of al-Andalus in the Background section. Not sure about the Islamic invasion, it happened 5 centuries before the subject of the article. It's like talking about the European colonization of America in a bio of Donald Trump. 06:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You could argue that the Islamic invasion of Iberia is much less familiar to most readers, and more relevant to the subject than European colonisation is to Donald Trump specifically, but no big deal. FunkMonk (talk) 08:19, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You have Reconquista as see also in the section, but don't link or mention it in the background section, which seems like an oversight.
 * Mentioned and link reconquista in the section. HaEr48 (talk)


 * What is the significance/relevance of a photo showing an apparently random building in Arjona? If anything, show something left over from the period.
 * Removed (see comment below). HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Speaking of Arjona images, this photo in the town's Commons category shows a bust depicting a person in Islamic garb, wonder if it has anything to do with this article's subject. This article seems to confirm it: If you remove the photo of the random building and move the maps up, you could move the Alhambra photo up to the "Settling in Granada" section, and show the bust under legacy instead.
 * Wow, good find! I added the bust statue, and moved the other pictures as suggested. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "The assembly elected Muhammad, who was known for his piety and his martial reputation in previous conflicts against the Christians, as the town's leader." Any details about these previous conflicts? Seems odd that these are not explained earlier, considering this is his biography.
 * There is no detail in the sources. If I were to guess, I'd say, given the political context in the background section, there must be occasional (or even regular) conflicts in the frontiers with the Christians, and Arjona was close to the frontiers, so he might be involved in those. Arjona was a small town, Muhammad I was not yet a big figure, and probably they were only small scale conflicts, so it's quite normal that it's not really noted by historians. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "the support of his clan, the Banu Nasr (also known as the Banu al-Ahmar)" his clan should already be mentioned in the origin section.
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "after being taken by the Nasrids" You have not explained or linked these earlier in the article body.
 * Clarified that this refers to Muhammad's takeover of those cities, mentioned in the preceding sentences.


 * "helped Ferdinand III of Castile take Córdoba and end centuries of Muslim rule in the city" What was his motivation for helping Muslims lose control?
 * Added that he's doing this while allying himself with the Castilians. Presumably he's also interested in weakening his overlord/rival, Ibn Hud. 06:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "captured Muhammad's homeland of Arjona" Homeland seems a bit strong.
 * Changed into hometown. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The painting showing him kissing the hand of the king seems possibly revisionist (glorifying the reconquistadors), how do the sources state this happened? If none of them state it happened this way, perhaps a note could be added to the caption.
 * It seems clear that he did kiss Ferdinand's hand, but it seems that Christian and Muslim sources seemed to disagree whether Ferdinand III-Muhammad I relation is a lord-vassal one in the feudal sense or just a mutual agreement between equals. Added several sentences to the "Initial conflict with Castile". HaEr48 (talk) 06:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Very nice with this increased detail. FunkMonk (talk) 08:19, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Seems there are a lot of names to choose from, how do most of the sources refer to him? You first refer to him as just Muhammad, but by the "Revolt of the Mudéjars" section, you say Muhammad I. EIther one should be picked, or there needs to be some logic to when it changes.
 * I explained the reasoning for choosing "Muhammad I" here. You can click the link for details, but basically it's slightly more common in the sources, plus it is more "systematic" and consistent with how the subsequent Sultans of Granada are named, so that's a plus. I'll try to do something about Muhammad I vs just Muhammad. 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I replaced many "Muhammad I" with just "Muhammad". I am being careful a little bit, because it's such a common name that many other figures mentioned in the articles are also so named, e.g. Muhammad II of Granada, Muhammad I al-Mustansir and Muhammad ibn Hud, so sometimes I need to disambiguate. Also some sentences, randomly mentioning "Muhammad" can be ambiguous given that it's such a common name, e.g. "Banu Ashqilula started a rebellion against Muhammad". HaEr48 (talk) 04:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Likewise, be consistent with Alfonso X/Alfonso.
 * I removed most of "Alfonso X" and also "Ferdinand III". HaEr48 (talk) 04:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Same with Banu Ashqilula/the Ashqilula.
 * Fixed this to always say the Banu Ashqilula. 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "according to professor of Spanish history L. P. Harvey" You don't present other historians mentioned, be consistent.
 * Added intro to other modern historians (Rachel Arié and María Jesús Rubiera Mata)


 * "as well to switch alliances" As well as?
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "is rule didn't" Contractions are discouraged.
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Nowhere does the article state he was a sultan, but he is categorised as such. The fact that he ruled an emirate indicates he was an emir, but this isn't stated either. Maybe he was both at different times. So could be clearer, and the category should reflect the outcome.
 * I added a note in the infobox that for him, the title of sultan, emir (and king) is used interchangeably (in historical documents as well as by modern writers). For some reason when I started editing I found Wikipedia mostly using "Emirate" for Granada and "Sultan" for the individual monarchs, and I did not have any good reason to change that so I just follow the convention. What do you think? HaEr48 (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "was still unresolved in 1273 when Muhammad died after falling off his horse." The intro could state that Granada survived for several centuries after.
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 06:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The intro could also mention Alhambra.
 * Done. HaEr48 (talk) 06:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. I've responded to some of them and feel free to check. I'll still work on the rest in the coming days. 07:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Looking good so far. FunkMonk (talk) 04:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * All that seems to be left is the Muhammad/Muhammad I and Alfonso X/Alfonso issues. 08:19, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Please take another look and let me know if you have more feedback. 04:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Support - looks good to me now, very interesting yet underrepresented topic. FunkMonk (talk) 08:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Comments from SnowFire
Looks good to me. Support. As a few purely optional thoughts, largely since I'm not sure how at variance Harvey (the one source I've read) is from other sources:
 * I realize that historians of the era didn't consider it very important, but do we truly know nothing of his family and personal life? How many wives did he have, when did he marry, did he have kids other than the future Muhammad II, etc.?
 * Yeah it's a big pity that the sources I come across don't explain about his family life. But from the passing mention (e.g. in Harvey p. 33) we know he has another son, Yusuf, and more than one daughter. In most Nasrid family tree we also see he has a brother named Ismail who seemed not very notable by himself but his descendants became Sultans of Granada after Muhammad I's male-line descendants died out. Should I put these information? Maybe between succession and legacy? HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Succession seems like the right place, since we know so little of their individual lives aside from royal claims. "Muhammad also left a brother, Ismail, another son Yusuf, and several daughters whose names aren't known" or the like.  Could even add a seealso header for Nasrid dynasty, even though it was technically linked already.  SnowFire (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Maybe link the first occurrence of maravedies rather than the second? Also, it might possibly be worth a footnote (since the linked article is kinda useless anyway) about just how substantial these tribute sizes were for the era?  Obviously impossible to express in modern terms, but a brief explanation of "this is a lot" vs. "this is a trifle" might be useful.  While we're at it, do we know if these tributes were actually paid, and for roughly how long?  I see a lot of "promised to pay", ""agreed to pay", and so on, which seems to have the article suggest these might have been just empty words; is that what the sources also think?  (We can surely presume that this was broken off when he switched vassalages, but maybe it happened even before then?)
 * I fixed the maravedies linking. Also explained that the initial 150,000 was the Ferdinand's most important income at the time, hopefully this nicely illustrates how big it was. I also added a text that says that he did pay his tributes every year (except of course during wartime etc.). HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Harvey seems suspicious that the 1246 agreement was actually a twenty year peace, and thinks this is just the historian-of-the-era writing in how long the peace actually lasted. Is that just Harvey having his own eccentric opinion, or is it worth qualifying this statement in the article a little?
 * You're right. I just re-read p.25 and realized that Harvey was actually not sure about whether 20 years was part of the agreement as Ibn Idhari says. I quickly checked Doubleday, O'Callaghan, and Latham & Fernandez-Puertas (aka EI2), none of them seem to say twenty years, so I just removed it from the article. HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * It might be worth adding an intensifier for "enforced the doctrines of Islamic orthodoxy", e.g. "strictly", judging by Harvey - not needed if he's a minority opinion, though.
 * EI2 seems to agree with Harvey on this, but I'm not sure if this sentence needs more intensifier? Don't "enforce" and "orthodoxy" already sound intense enough. HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * This might be too much work, but an update or English version of File:Reino_de_Granada.svg would be nice, maybe one focused on the 1200-1300 or so (since that map shows losses from 1300 - shortly before the Granada War). Could also cut out a lot of the less important cities, and only have the relevant ones for this story: Granada, Arjona, Jaén, Seville, etc.  It was apparently based off of File:Iberian Peninsula base map.svg, which might be a useful start point.  (I might even be up for taking a hack at it myself, but not any time soon, unfortunately.)
 * Good idea & I could try to do it, but my SVG-editing skill isn't that good - I struggled just to add Arjona which wasn't there when I found it in Commons. So maybe this will take some time too. HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Personal slant: don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'd shamelessly convert to a png, crop, and work on that with all the zillion normal image editing software out there.  Doesn't even have to have fancy borders, simply color-coding city names by "Christian-held in 1200, Muslim-held in 1200 but Christian held in 1300, and Muslim-held throughout" would give a good sense of the change in borders.  SnowFire (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

As noted above, all these suggestions are optional - just thoughts / possibilities. SnowFire (talk) 00:07, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I've replied above. Feel free to reply and let me know if you have more feedback. HaEr48 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! SnowFire (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Since apparently you've read the sources (at least Harvey), would you be interested in doing the source review for this nomination? HaEr48 (talk) 22:59, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I'm now currently travelling and super-busy, so if I do it, it probably won't be for ~2 weeks or so. SnowFire (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Image legends
Unless these are complete sentences (i.e. contain a finite verb) should not end in a period. Graham Beards (talk) 17:27, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks. HaEr48 (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Review progress
Seems to be this nomination is quite close to consensus, may I get leave to start a new nomination? HaEr48 (talk) 04:17, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. -- Laser brain  (talk)  12:11, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Unless I've missed it somewhere, we still need a source review. This can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Right, it is yet to have a source review. It's already listed at the top of WT:FAC but no takers so far... HaEr48 (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm back. I'll try and give this a source review later today...  SnowFire (talk) 20:10, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Source review
 * In general, the sources are high-quality and include names I'm familiar with, so good coverage. I'm sure it's not EVERYTHING related to early Granadan history, but that's fine.  I'd say that the Encyclopedia of Islam is a bit of a weak source, but whatever, it's just being used for basic biographical details here so is fine.  Unfortunately I don't have access to a high quality library at the moment for some of the offline references, but it seems the SR doesn't require that, so sure, WP:AGF.
 * Early biographical details / birth date / alternate names check out with the references (e.g. Vidal Castro).
 * "According to Castilian sources, he came from a humble background and initially had 'no other occupation than following the oxen and the plough'" - this might be a tad misleading. Yes, the quote is from Castilian sources, but Harvey's passage immediately adds that Islamic sources also agreed his family came from an "agricultural background".  Maybe this statement is over-qualified at the moment?
 * Good point. I slightly reworded it, is it okay now. I agree that his "humble" agricultural background seems agreed by all sides, but I still want to mention the source of the direct quotation. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The Harvey references later check out, and many of the non-Harvey references are for things that are uncontroversial or that I'd be shocked to discover were "wrong". Everything else seems plausible and not eye-raising enough to want to go double-check.
 * Reference formatting seems fine to me.

Basically aside from the one nitpick I discovered above, looks good to me. SnowFire (talk) 00:14, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, . I responded to your nitpick above. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Closing comment: We have a fairly clear consensus to promote here, with some good reviews and an implied support from RetiredDuke. The source review from someone familiar with the topic and the literature was doubly helpful. Sarastro (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Sarastro (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.