Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Neptune (Alexander McQueen collection)/archive1

Neptune (Alexander McQueen collection)

 * Nominator(s): &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Those of you who have read my previous McQueen articles have seen the man at his best and most brilliant: the legendary armadillo shoe, the masterful Widows of Culloden, and Twisted Bull, which managed to balance commerce and creativity. Here I present to you a different McQueen: exhausted, commercial, and worst of all, boring. No one liked this collection and no one liked the runway show, both of which lacked any sense of the theatrical. It barely rates in his biographies, and not a single piece appeared in the blockbuster retrospective Savage Beauty. Nevertheless, against all good taste, in all its tacky 80s faux-Greek glory, I love it. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Source review from Guerillero
Pulling up a chair and saving a spot. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 12:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I can't find a fault on the sourcing front. Everything is formatted correctly and all of the sources are high quality. Well done! -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Aoba47

 * This is super nitpick-y, but in the first paragraph of the "Concept and collection", the word "said" is used two sentence in a row in a similar context so it does create some slight repetition. The second instance, (said it was a transitional collection), could be easily revised to say something along the lines of (described it as a transitional collection).
 * Fixed


 * I am not sure about presenting this part, (whose work hovered between seductive and tawdry), in Wikipedia's voice. It reads more like something I would find in a review rather than a more objective article.
 * I've revised it to a "has been described" sort of thing. The opinion is reflected in the cited refs, so hopefully that works.


 * For this part, (fashion photographer Guy Bourdin, artist Jean-Paul Goude, and Jamaican performer Grace Jones), it seems off to use nationality for only one person in a list of three.
 * Since nationality is mentioned for other people from the paragraph, I've re-added the other two being French - it was there but got lost in copyediting somewhere


 * I know ChrisTheDude has already raised a point on this part, (represented by songs from Siouxsie and the Banshees, Suzi Quatro, and the Ike and Tina Turner single "Nutbush City Limits"), so apologies for stepping on his toes. I would revise this part as the transition from general songs by artists to a specific song is awkward. I would instead move "Nutbush City Limits" to the end to say (as well as the Ike and Tina Turner single "Nutbush City Limits" and tracks from Missy Elliott and Aretha Franklin). That is of course if the song is kept in the prose.
 * Yeah, I've ditched Nutbush and revised the order.


 * I have noticed a few instances where the citations are not put in numeric order. Is there a reason for this ordering?
 * Nah, just carelessness. Should be fixed now.


 * I have a nitpick-y comment for this sentence: (Neptune was poorly received at launch for a number of reasons.) I do not think "for a number of reasons" is necessary, and I would cut it as filler.
 * Cut


 * I am not sure about the current structure of the "Reception" section. It currently puts each review as its own paragraph when I think a more thematic approach could be more beneficial. The first paragraph already has solid themes to aid with this organization, such as this instance: (Several critics drew unflattering comparisons to costumes from genre fiction.) which could be paired with the Xena and Wonder Woman comparisons.
 * Yes, you're right. I've overhauled it, see what you think.


 * For this part, (Andrew Wilson does not even discuss the clothing), I think the "even" pushes the point a little too hard, and I would suggest removing it.
 * All else being equal, I would prefer to keep it, as it feels genuinely remarkable for Wilson not to even mention the designs. Almost every other collection gets at least a paragraph, usually more. Even the equally-boring previous collection, The Man Who Knew Too Much, gets a couple of sentences telling you what the clothes looked like.

I hope this review is helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I did not miss anything. I appreciate that you brought this article to the FAC space. McQueen is remember as such an icon in the fashion world that it is nice to read more about his collections that were not as successful. Maybe it is because my Wikipedia work is primarily focused on obscure topics, but I feel it better rounds out a reader's understanding of McQueen has a whole. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 20:58, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Cheers Aoba, thanks for taking the time to review! Always appreciate your comments :) &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 06:35, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for responding to everything and for your very kind words! I support the FAC for promotion based on the prose. I hope you have a wonderful weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support from ChrisThe Dude

 * "the work of artists influential that decade" => "the work of artists influential in that decade"
 * Fixed


 * "Sarah Burton, then his assistant" - when's "then"? No dates have been mentioned in the body thus far
 * tweaked


 * "In the years preceding Neptune," - could do with specifying at this point what the date of Neptune was
 * I've added the season in the body, how's that?


 * "primarily 1980s rock music, represented by songs from Siouxsie and the Banshees, Suzi Quatro, and the Ike and Tina Turner single "Nutbush City Limits"," - this reads like Nutbush is an example of 80s rock, but it actually came out in the early 70s.....
 * hah yes this was me accidentally replicating an error from the ref. I've ditched the track name anyway.


 * "Bare legs and gladiator sandals with stiletto heels further emphasized" - McQueen was British so I think that UK spellings should be used and therefore the last word should be "emphasised"
 * They should be, I'm just terrible at remembering


 * "English supermodel Kate Moss; who at the time of the show" => "English supermodel Kate Moss, who at the time of the show"
 * Done


 * "Some reviewers found the second phase bore" => "Some reviewers found that the second phase bore"
 * Done


 * "Although she did not criticize" => ise
 * Done


 * "However, they found the collection overall had" => "However, they found that the collection overall had"
 * Ditched that wording anyway


 * Caryatid image caption needs a full stop
 * Done


 * That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review Chris, tweaks made! &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 06:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:26, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Putting down a marker. I'm enjoying this series of articles, and I doubt I'll be disappointed with this one either! - SchroCat (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * SC
 * Lead
 * Shouldn't "Imprimerie nationale" be italicised? (and ditto in the Runway show section)
 * MOS says "A proper name is usually not italicized" and then specifically says organizations and institutions shouldn't be.
 * Good to know - I've de-italicised it in the main article, where the use was mixed


 * Runway show
 * "emphasised the stature of the models": "emphasised their stature"? (It will remove the three uses of "models" in quick succession)
 * Done


 * "cut-outs" is hyphenated in BrEng (and ditto in the Legacy section)
 * Fixed


 * Reception
 * "Pantsuit" is American: "trouser suit" is BrEng
 * Also fixed

That's my lot - all rather trivial fare. - SchroCat (talk) 10:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Cheers SC, thanks for the review. All fixed now. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Happy with this. Another excellent article in what is becoming a very strong topic. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It should only take me 3 or so years to get to FT, given the sheer number of collections :P &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 15:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't give up - it took me four years to build this FT, but I got there in the end...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * God damn, that is a truly staggering achievement. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 11:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - No suggestions for improvement I could think of after reading through the article multiple times. It seems to meet the FA criteria based on the brilliant prose. Best.--NØ 08:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @MaranoFan, sorry for not replying to this earlier - I missed it, I think Chris's comment came right after and I never saw it on my watchlist. Thanks for your support :) &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 11:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Image review
I'll leave some comments in a few minutes. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Mcqueen-neptune-gold-swimsuit.jpg - has a fair use rationale, looks good.
 * File:050-In the time of Sappho and Aspasia.jpg - The source date needs to be changed from 2014 to whenever it was actually published.
 * Done
 * File:Azzedine alaia 1985 mini skirt.jpg - CC-BY, looks good.
 * File:Gianni Versace - Magna Grecia Tribute 04.jpg - This Flickr file needs manual review from a Commons license reviewer or administrator. The clothing itself seems acceptably licensed for Wikipedia per c:COM:CLOTHING, as fashion generally can't be copyrighted in the US, and Wikipedia only needs to follow US copyright law. However, the clothing might or might not be copyrighted in Italy. I would upload a local copy of this image to Wikipedia, since it's clearly freely licensed according to US copyright law.
 * I've had a look at the flickr page and it appears legitimate to me - appears to be a tourist uploading photos he took of neat things in Italy (other photos of similar things with a PD license also). No reason to suspect flickrwashing. I've uploaded a local copy with (I think?) a thorough explanation, let me know if I need to change anything.
 * File:Caryatids of the Four Continents LACMA M.82.197.1-.4.jpg - PD-LACMA, looks good. I'd put the tag c:Template:PD-old-auto-expired there as well.
 * Done
 * – Epicgenius (talk) 20:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Let me know what you think. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 22:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Pass image review - everything looks good to me. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Anarchyte
Reserving a spot. Will be preoccupied over the next few days, but after Wednesday I'll definitely take a look. Feel free to ping me if it appears I've forgotten. Anarchyte ( talk ) 15:25, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel like the lead would benefit from a paragraph break before "The collection's clothing" so that the reception and legacy are in a separate paragraph.
 * I tried it with two but it just wings up producing two dinky paragraphs and I really dislike it.
 * All good, was just a suggestion.


 * Power dressing would benefit from a short explanation within the article in a way that connects it with McQueen's quotes. Seems contradictory that it distinctly mentions a professional workplace style of clothing and then says "Accordingly, many designs were cut to be revealing, with short hemlines, sheer panels, and skin otherwise exposed". Anarchyte ( talk ) 09:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The preceding sentence quotes McQueen explicitly saying he does "sexy tailoring, sexy clothes"; the sentence beginning with "accordingly" refers to that. To me the sequence seems logical. I've split the paragraph anyway now that there's a definition of power dressing. (That being said, combining sexless power dressing with rockstar sexuality is completely on-brand for McQueen, who loved exploring contradictions.)
 * Yeah, my concern was that it seemed to jump from "smart" to "sexy" without a clear connection. Reads well now.


 * Hard seems a strange adjective to use and it doesn't appear obvious that Cathy Horyn is using it in a negative sense. Perhaps "commented on the collection's aggression"?
 * I've changed it to refer to aggression


 * "Cathy Horyn of The New York Times compared" - second instance; reduce to "Horyn".
 * Fixed


 * "screamed Cinecittà kitsch" → would benefit from a wikilink to kitsch.
 * Hm, okay
 * It's not an overly common word, which is why I suggested it. Thanks for adding it.


 * Jennifer Zuiker paragraph should be last. Occurred in 2020 (chronologically 2nd to last) as is the least relevant.
 * Done


 * Just preference, but I think the Caryatids of the Four Continents caption would be better if it read something like "Caryatids of the Four Continents, a sculpture which Lee Alexander McQueen: Mind, Mythos, and Muse compared the collection's long white dresses".
 * This makes the caption passively voiced, and either forces the removal of the details of the sculpture or awkwardly places them midentence, so I would prefer not to. I have tweaked it to start with "The exhibition" to identify that the work pictured is not Mind, Mythos, Muse; hopefully that works.
 * Ah, forgot about voicing. Your adjustment works.

Anarchyte ( talk ) 09:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've responded above, mostly going with the suggested changes but in some cases doing something a little different. Let me know your thoughts. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Perfect, thank you. Support. Anarchyte  ( talk ) 08:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

 * In "References", some titles are in sentence case and some in title case. They should all be in sentence case per MOS:CAPTITLE.
 * Will do. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Thomas (2015) needs a publisher location. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Will add. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 18:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Both done and did a bit of extra tidying as well. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 18:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)