Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New York State Route 308


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:13, 22 July 2008.

New York State Route 308

 * Nominator(s): Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 

It may be short, but it sure is comprehensive, especially considering the short length of the road itself. It took quite a bit of research, and I think I've found every last bit of information about the route that there is to find. Comments are appreciated, obviously. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  16:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

mages should not separate headers from the beginning of the text, as Image:Downtown Rhinebeck, NY.jpg currently does. — Bellhalla (talk) 05:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments Support
 * You don't need to link common units of measure, like mile and kilometer. (I think I've gotten all of them already.)
 * The sole remaining one is in the infobox, which links it automatically, from what I can tell.
 * You might stub out Ulster and Delaware Turnpike or delink it to avoid a red link in the lead.
 * In the lead section, "The earliest inhabitants of the route" sounds funny. I don't think of people living on a route. Similarly in the "History" section. (Is "on the route" a regional phrase, like "standing on line" vs. "standing in line", perhaps?)
 * Also, same section, "the Native American Mohicans" sounds funny, too. Perhaps "the Mohicans, a Native American [group/people …]" (Also in section "History")
 * What's the relevance of the bridge opening date in the lead section?
 * I
 * "National Register of Historic Places" linked in back-to-back paragraphs in the "Route description" section.
 * In the "History" section, "An estimated 8,000 Mohicans existed…" sounds kind of harsh and clinical. How about "An estimated 8,000 Mohicans lived…" or, even better, "The total population of the Mohicans was estimated at 8,000…"
 * In the Ulster and Delaware Turnpike charter quotation:
 * The river is spelled Susquehannah, and, as a direct quote, should appear spelled that way. Adding "[sic]" is appropriate.
 * The parenthetical phrase "now Bainbridge" is not in the source linked, and should be in brackets. Also, "present-day Bainbridge" is a little more clear.
 * Unless there is a good reason, wikilinks within quotes should be avoided, per MOS:QUOTE.
 * "NY 308 was assigned…" Since the article itself is about NY 308, perhaps say "The NY 308 designation was assigned…"
 * Several book citations are missing page numbers. Examples: current notes 9–11, 10, 13.
 * Just note 10, now — Bellhalla (talk) 11:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Several book references are missing complete publishing data, such as location, publisher, and isbn. For those books without an isbn, other locator aids, like OCLC (available from Worldcat.org), are helpful.
 * Those missing location and/or publishing data : Notes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 — Bellhalla (talk) 21:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Those missing an ISBN: Notes 11, 13, and possibly note 10 — Bellhalla (talk) 21:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Those missing a year of publication: Note 10 — Bellhalla (talk) 21:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note 3 is missing a publisher.
 * Note 8 does not need to preserve the all caps of the title. Change to title case or sentence case, please.
 * Refs include a mixture of "Lastname, Firstname" and "Firstname Lastname" styling. I believe that the former is most common, but all should be consistent regardless.
 * Note 13 is the odd one out, still — Bellhalla (talk) 21:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And now missing its comma. :) — Bellhalla (talk) 11:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, I think I got everything. If not, let me know. Thanks, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  13:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, it seems I missed quite a lot. I think I did get everything now except for finding a page number for one of the book refs. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  01:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Reviewing only image licensing: looks good. --NE2 11:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look good (although it'd be nice to see the Milan Concerns source changed to something from a true historical society or suchlike, it's not a requirement), links all checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Very good. This will hopefully be a quick pass. --CG was here. (T - C - S - E) 16:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Well written, interesting read --Dincher (talk) 00:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments I think it would be worthwhile to include functional classification and traffic data for the route as this information is readily available. Also, the Ulster and Delaware Turnpike is not linked anywhere in the article. At a minimum, it should be linked the first time it is mentioned in History (even if it is currently a red link). --Polaron | Talk 01:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, I think Route 982M should be mentioned in the history for completeness. --Polaron | Talk 02:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you explain how 982M is related to the route? I've never even heard of that route. Thanks, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  02:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 982M is the current designation for the former portion west of US 9. Also, I just checked the functional classifications of NY 308 and the two GIS segments are listed as "07" or rural major collector roads. --Polaron | Talk 14:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Added bit about 982M. Not sure how to find traffic data and such, though. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  15:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've inserted 2006 AADT data from the NYSDOT Traffic Data Viewer application. --Polaron | Talk 16:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  16:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: It may just be my web browser being weird, but the second image in the Route description section seems to push the History heading over. - Algorerhythms (talk) 20:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It works fine for me, but I added a -. Any better? Juliancolton Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  21:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good now. - Algorerhythms (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks. Any other comments? Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  21:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That was the only major thing I noticed. Support. - Algorerhythms (talk) 22:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments—This is a very interesting article, and it should aspire to be the best summary source of information of its type in that part of the world. The writing needs scrutiny throughout; it's not too badly written, but there's certainly room for massaging to a professional standard. Here are random examples from the top.
 * "a rural major collector road"; maybe I'm wrong—wouldn't you invert the order of the second and third words?
 * Note that this is a technical term for a functional classification of the road. If it sounds too awkward, I suppose "rural" can be removed. --Polaron | Talk 04:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Acres converted to sq. km, as opposed to hectares ... was just discussing this with Lightmouse. Normally I'd say small to small and large to large—I think it's 2.4 acres to the ha. But here, it's so large that maaaybe it's better. How many acres to the square mile? Do American readers have a better sense of point something of a sq. mile than thousands of acres?
 * A portion of [the route]—wouldn't "Part of ..." be simpler? Portion sound like a kitchen recipe. There are others further down.
 * The "also" in Para 1 is idle; stronger without. Every sentence is additional info. "Also" should only be used to mark additionality, to coint an ugly word.
 * I have tried to address the issues with the first paragraph. Please check to see if it is acceptable. --Polaron | Talk 04:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a long winding snake: "Indicated by artifacts found near Lake Sepasco, a small lake near NY 308, the highway began its history in about 1685, when a group of Native American Mohicans called the Sepasco built a trail known as the Sepasco Trail that ran from the Hudson River, eastward through modern-day Rhinebeck (then known as Sepasco), ending at Lake Sepasco." First off, use dashes so the reader doesn't think it will be a list: "Indicated by artifacts found near Lake Sepasco, a small lake near NY 308, and a marsh at the end of the route, the highway began ...". See what I mean? So "Indicated by artifacts found near Lake Sepasco—a small lake near NY 308—the highway began its history in about 1685, when a group of Native American Mohicans called the Sepasco built the Sepasco Trail; this trail ran from the Hudson River, eastward through modern-day Rhinebeck (then known as Sepasco), and ended at Lake Sepasco." Now you'v allowed them to rest momentarily at the semicolon and gather their thoughts. If you don't like two sets of dashes in two consecutive sentences, turn the next ones into commas.
 * Talking of the next sentence, make it easier by removing "State of" (definitely) and "Town of" (maybe, see what you think). Shouldn't be caps, anyway.
 * "state" and "town" removed from first paragraph. --Polaron | Talk 04:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The last "also" in the lead: yep, that's a good one; it should always clearly relate to what has come before.
 * "soon exiting Rhinebeck as it runs parallel to the Landsman Kill River"—"As" is a difficult word: is this a "while" or a "because" as? I think it's a "while" as, so "while running"? I avoid "as", usually. Non-native speakers have particular problems with it.
 * MOS breach: no hyphen after "-ly".
 * "inn in"—ha! Maybe try to avoid the juxtaposition, but it's no big deal. Inside the inn in Innsbruck.
 * Bit stilted: "The Landsman Kill is noted for its numerous spawning runs of smelt, alewife, and blueback herring." (my italics). Who notes? The ref? I guess so. Just state the fact: "has numerous ...".
 * "by way of an interchange"—"through", or even "via", although some people might object to the latter outside a scientific context (I don't). Via means route in Latin.
 * Redundant wording: "carries an average volume of about 6,400 vehicles per day" --> "carries a daily average of 6,400 vehicles". See MOSNUM on approximations of large numbers.
 * I'm not sure I follow about approximations. Should we change to "six thousand" (instead of 6400) and "four thousand" (instead of 3700)? I also think the word "volume" or "traffic" should be there since your phrasing is unclear as to what is being carried. --Polaron | Talk 04:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

And more. I hope this ends up being promoted. Bring aboard fresh eyes? TONY  (talk)  04:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. I think I fixed all the prose issues listed, so I'd appreciate if you could take another look and give me another set of examples. Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  17:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The source given doesn't seem to verify the claim of the oldest continuously operated inn (at least I couldn't find it there); anyway, this NY Times article can be used to source that text (noting that its wording is more in line with my thoughts, I'm not sure it's the oldest, but one of the many that claim to be). As Tony said, another run-through is needed; I found too many little things. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 23:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Also tried to copyedit the article some. Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  00:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.