Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/New York State Route 74/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 04:18, 5 September 2008.

New York State Route 74

 * Nominator(s): Mitch32(UP), Durova

We're nominating this article for featured article because it is a definitely ready article. It took weeks of work, and is by far, one of New York State Route's best articles. This article also details Vermont Route 74, and all its history is into it. As a request, I would like to see Durova get credit for this as well, because she worked so hard on the article. Thanks. Mitch32(UP) 18:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Lead seems far too long. Try trimming it to three paragraphs. I'll review the prose later. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  23:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Current refs 15, 16, 22, 24, 25, and 27 are lacking a last access date.
 * http://www.gribblenation.net/nyroutes/jct/74.htm deadlinks
 * Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * All done, Ealdgyth. Thanks!Mitch32(UP) 16:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose Some good content, but the prose is very poor. Get a copyediter in ASAP. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The opening sentence is disappointing, and very awkwardly worded.
 * Done-Mitch32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The route passes the entrance to Fort Ticonderoga along its 20.44 mi (32.89 km) length. "20.44 mi (32.89 km) length"? Doesn't work. Try "20.44 mi (32.89 km) route".
 * Done-Mitch32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Beyond the eastern terminus Lake Champlain, a seasonal ferry carries cars across the lake into Vermont. "Eastern terminus Lake Champlain"? There seems to be a work missing.
 * Done-Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ''In Cornwall, Route 74 finally terminates at an intersection with Vermont Route 30." Not sure why "finally" is needed. The route's only 30 miles long.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * On the Vermont side however, there have been a couple of alignments. Remove "however" and change "a couple" &rarr; "a number".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Route 73 originally connected to the ferry and VT 74 ended at Route 73, but the alignments eventually switched, with Route 73 terminating at an intersection with Route 74, and Route 74 extending to the ferry to connect to NY 74. "With" is a poor connecting word.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The interchange also has a view of Severance Hill, which reaches as high as 1,600 feet (490 m). Remove "also".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are a few local road intersections just south of Goosebury Hill, but Paradox Lake begins to parallel the roadway to the north. "But"? Those two ideas don't contradict themselves.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Beyond of couple mountains and hills on the southern side of Route 74, is where Cotters Pond is located. Would be much better as "Cotters Pond is located beyond of a couple mountains and hills on the southern side of Route 74."
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * After leaving Paradox, Route 74 makes a drastic turn to the southeast along the base of Skiff Mountain. "Drastic" is a poor word choice here.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Eagle Lake comes to an end, and the highway intersects with County Route 2, the first numbered highway since US 9. Huh? CR 2 is the first highway to be numbered since US 9?
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The northern part of Route 74 shows the ridges leading up to Keeney Mountain, which peaks at 1,400 feet (430 m) high. Self-explanatory. If not, "in high" is grammatically incorrect.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The highway intersects with New York State Route 9N and New York State Route 22, which the latter becomes concurrent with 74. Link Route 22 and "latter" &rarr; "later".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ''Route 74 and Route 22 head now to the south towards downtown Ticonderoga." "Now" is unneeded.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In the entire article, there are too many commas in some places, and not enough in others.
 * An improved cable system remains in use today, comprised of two 1-1/4" steel cables in parallel alignment. Needs a conversion.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The highway goes shortly to the north, passing several homes. There are homes everywhere...we don't need to know exactly where they exist.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are some tree patches as well, but both soon dissipate into more of fields and farmlands. Unencyclopedic writing. First, "some" is a weasel word. Second, "dissipate" is a poor word choice". Third, remove "more of".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * At Smith Street, it turns to the northeast, winding through a patch of forests. "A patch of forests"?
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This does not last however, as the highway turns to the northeast once again. Unnecessary sentence. Aside from being poorly worded, we know nothing on the road lasts forever.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The beginning segment of Route 74 after the concurrency is moderately populated, heading eastward once again. However, the rural highway turns once again to the northeast, following this for most of the distance to Cornwall. If it's moderately populated, how can the highway be rural?
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * After Doolittle Road, the highway becomes straight to the east, intersecting with several township highways. "Becomes straight to the east" &rarr; "turns east".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The highway is passing through fields and homes, with the forests it once passed, in its wake. There are so many problems with that sentence, I'm not going to list them. Just rewrite it.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Minvera eventually was created when annexed from the town in March 1817. "Eventually was" &rarr; "was eventually".
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There were two toll gates erected for the highway, but the charter stated that there could be another toll gate approximately every ten miles completed highway. "There were two toll gates" &rarr; "Two toll gates were". Also needs a conversion.
 * Done-<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 16:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Overall, there's a lot of work to be done. The writing is generally poor, though there is some good content. Get a copyeditor in, fix those issues, and I'll take another look. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)}}


 * Oppose 1) Lack of inline citations - "Google Maps. Overview Map of NY 74 [map]. Retrieved on 2008-01-30." is relied on for a primary citation on many paragraphs, and this is just a map. To apply this as a justifiable citation would amount to passive Original Research. 2) Concerns over placement of large picture in History section as a violation of WP:Accessibility or other MoS related problems. 3) Lack of information on who uploaded the image, cropped the image, etc, as the image does not match the link to the Library of Congress image. 4) No page numbers for "H.P. Smith (1885). The History of Essex County. D. Mason and Company.", which is the sole citation for section "Schroon and its early highways" 5) Sandwiching issues with image "New York State Senate journal, 1832.jpg" 6) Formatting issues with "East NY 74 reference marker edited.jpg" in which it overrides the subheading 7) Use of a map as a reliable source under citation "New York State Thruway Authority. New York Thruway [map]. Cartography by Rand McNally and Company. (1971" without proof that this is a reliable source for historical information 8) Use of another map, "Google Maps. Fort Ticonderoga-Larrabees Point Fry @43.854016, -73.385363 [map]. Retrieved on 2008-08-27.", as a reliable source which it is not. 9) Use of another map, "Esso. New York State Map [map]. Cartography by General Drafting Inc.. (1936)", in performing OR by determing when something changed. 10) Same problem as above for "United States Geological Survey. Clymer, NY quadrangle [map]. Cartography by United States Geological Survey. (1954) Retrieved on 2008-08-24." and "New York State Department of Transportation. Clymer, NY quadrangle [map]. Cartography by New York State Department of Transportation. (1978) Retrieved on 2008-08-24." 11) Lack of citations to third party, reliable sources, providing physical information that is not developed beyond the sources (i.e. not violating Original Research). 12) Lead is too large for the bulk of the material present. 13) Organizational problems including the history section at the bottom, and lack of connection with the Ferry and the Vermont highway. There are many more significant problems, and this page is not good enough for a Good Article status, let alone Featured Article. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maps are fine to use as sources for a number of reasons. First and foremost, they're used for nearly all other road articles, and have passed numerous previous FACs. Aside from that, they're fairly easy to gain encyclopedic information from. For one, on a Google map, one simply has to follow the route and write a description of what is shown on the map. For the history section, one can compare two maps from different years, and recover information about realignments or other pieces of significant history. For example, to determine that a realignment took place between 1930 and 1931, one can compare the two maps, and if there is a change between the two, then that becomes a cite-able piece of information. Hope this helps, –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  20:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Please withdraw this nomination. Since people hate this article, I am not gonna go any farther.<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 19:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Sorry. Mental breakdown there.<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 20:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, after a major discussion with the co-nominator, and how I'm acting over this, I wish to suspend the nomination until I can solve Ottava Rima's issues.<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="-1" COLOR="red">Mitch</FONT>32(UP) 21:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose I take some issue with Ottava's comments above and agree with Julian about citing the various maps. I see no issue in using maps to cite the changes made in the alignments of a highway. Second comment concerns the integration of VT 74 into this article. The infobox is incomplete as it only lists the NYSR 74 name and shield at the top. The map should be redone to show both highways and it should include the brower for both states. According to the infobox, am I to assume NYSDOT maintains VT 74 as well? Please place a horizontal bar in the junction list in the infobox to represent the state line. I have not read the article yet for copy editing concerns, but the infobox needs work before I can justify this article being promoted. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I know it doesn't resolve the issues with the map, but I've tried something new and added a VT infobox to the VT 74 section. What do you think? –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  02:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, I believe I've solved your issues. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  14:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The infobox looks good, but it's missing a browser. I'll evaluate the prose later.Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's ok with you and Durova, I'd be happy to help out here and keep the FAC alive. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  21:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I personally think the FAC can be kept alive. The only concerns are the addition of some stuff to an image and then adding additional refs without having to change the content. It is only FA structure, not content, that needs to be accommodated. Nothing big. If you are still struggling to find stuff, I can dig into news archives and the rest. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Additionally, there are my issues with the infobox that need to be solved as well. Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry Imzadil. I didn't mean to make it seem like those were the only concerns, just mostly my only concerns. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I'm rather surprised to see this here since Mitchazenia asked me to review it a few days ago before bringing it to FAC. I just got round to reviewing it and then noticed that it was already posted.  Some things benefit from haste, but FAC is not one of them. -- Laser brain   (talk)  03:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments - The article is not quite ready and I feel the nomination was rushed without a wider peer review. Article requires major revisions but can still be salvaged. Initial comments on the lead section are below.
 * Paragraph 1: "Vermont State Route" is not a common name although not unknown. "Vermont Route" is a better choice; "...along its 20.44 mi route." needs a hyphen after the numerals; Some clarifications to avoid confusion are necessary. You already stated that NY 74 terminates at Lake Champlain then two sentences later you have "The highway continues...". You can either treat this as a single route or as two separate routes but please be consistent throughout the article; Be aware that Larabees Point (please check the actual spelling and use consistently throughout the text) is within the town of Shoreham; The last two sentences have issues with comma usage. You might want to comb through the entire text to check.
 * Paragraph 2: "name designations" is redundant. "Designations" is sufficient; In the second sentence, you probably mean "most of the roadway now known as 74 was designated as part of 73". There is a subtle difference and the current phrasing makes one have to pause and think to get it; The last sentence is misleading, implying that the current 74 was assigned as a result of the old 74 being renumbered to 474. The cause and effect is reversed. Please check the Hisotry section.
 * Paragraph 3: "Multiple alignments" should probably read "multiple realignments"; "Another alignment of F-9" implies that VT F-9 had more than one alignment at a single point in time. This whole paragraph needs to be rewritten to describe what F-9 and F-9A were in relation to modern VT 74. Right now, VT F-9A comes out of the blue; What do you mean by "real state route designations"? F-9 and F-9A aren't? Also, it is mentioned that "the alignments eventually switched". The alignments didn't switch, the designation did - and actually, only the western tip did. The current phrasing implies the route numbers for the entire highway were swapped. The last sentence is grammatically incorrect.
 * Overall comments on lead section - I think it tries to go into too much detail about the designation history. This can be summarized further and made more compact and compelling. Some history of the ferry crossing might be worth adding to the lead as well.
 * Infobox: Unlike say New York State Route 343, there is no dominant route here and a composite infobox (e.g. Rhode Island Route 121) is probably a better way to do this in my opinion. The second VT-only infobox is also bad stylistically. You might as well separate the articles if the preference is to treat this as two separate highways.
 * More to come as I have time to review. --Polaron | Talk 19:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Done with most of that. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  19:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.