Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nights: Journey of Dreams/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2017.

Nights: Journey of Dreams

 * Nominator(s): JAG  UAR   17:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Rosie and Jim are back. The reason why this article failed its previous FAC was due to concerns over the heavy-going prose, in particular its development section. But now that I'm back, and the fact that this article has received some generous copyediting from a couple of people in the past few months, I'm confident this should go more smoothly. I also took this through a GA review, so that's helped smooth things over as well. Nothing has changed with the sources, in fact the source and image reviews passed with flying colours last time but I'll request them again anyway, FAC procedures and what not. JAG UAR   17:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Aoba47

 * I was a little confused by the following part (but will be perused by "Awakers" which will awaken the player-character should three of them come into contact), and I was wondering if you could provide further clarification. Do you mean when three enemies attack the player-character at once or when the player-character is hit three times by an enemy (meaning one enemy can take out the player-character)? I have never played this game so I found this part to be a little unclear.
 * It's when three awakers come into contact with the player at the same time. I've never played this game either but have hopefully clarified this. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 19:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Do you think you should make it clearer about which character is control on the ground? It is never made absolutely clear if Will/Helen or Nights is the "player-character" referenced here.
 * Rephrased to "players initially control Will or Helen but are required to merge themselves into Nights". The player initially controls the children on foot, but must take control of Nights in order to fly, if that makes sense? JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 19:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The Big Ben image has the following tag attached to it: (This image may not have the proper copyright or licensing information, or there is a conflict of license.).
 * I don't know what I done wrong but that tag keeps popping up every time after removing it. I think it's something to do with me adding two separate rationales to one image since it's two images representing one. To solve this I've merged both rationales into one. I think I know someone who does image reviews on requests, so I'll ask him. In the meantime I'll keep my eye on it. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not sure how it works either. Just wanted to bring it to your attention. Aoba47 (talk) 19:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You do not have Wii linked on its first use. It is currently linked in the "Design" subsection, but its first use is in the "Gameplay" section (i.e. in this sentence: "My Dreams" connects with the Wii's Forecast Channel, which will change the weather conditions in the player's "My Dream" world according to real-world forecasts.).
 * Linked in the gameplay section and unlinked in the design section. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wii remote, Classic controller, Nunchunk, and GameCube controller are linked multiple times.
 * Well spotted. Removed duplicates. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * In this part (better known for his musical compositions in the Sonic the Hedgehog series), add a link to the article on the Sonic franchise.
 * Added. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Link Sonic Team in the body of the article.
 * Linked. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Boss is linked multiple times in the body of the article.
 * Removed duplicate links. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Just for clarification, in this part (while Will celebrates with his father after winning a football game), do you think it is necessary to clarify that it is football and not American football? Just wondering since I am an American and was wondering if it is a point that might benefit from clarification. Maybe a link would help.
 * Linked association football. I had already linked football but I typed in "soccer" to see what it led to and hopefully this should make it clearer. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Game engine is linked twice in the body of the article.
 * De-linked. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Add the release years for Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess.
 * Added. JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Great work with this article. My review focused on the prose, and I will leave anything related to source reliability and use to the source review. I honestly did not find much that needed improvement. Once my questions/comments are addressed, I will support this for promotion. Have a wonderful rest of your day! Aoba47 (talk) 18:40, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * thank you so much for the review! I should have hopefully addressed all of the above, please let me know if I can do anything else? I'm not too sure how to include multiple rationales in an image (or if I even have to), but I'll request an image review shortly. Hopefully this article is much more refined and smoother than it was last time! JAG  UAR   19:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing my comments, and this article is very strong. I support this for promotion. Good luck with it this time around! Aoba47 (talk) 19:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments from TheJoebro64

 * I'm not exactly sure if the sentence In 2010, Iizuka commented that he would be interested in making a third Nights game, should the management of Sega decide to commission one. belongs in the "design" section of development. I think this is definitely a good piece of information to be included in the article, but is there perhaps a different place, where it's a bit more relevant?
 * I see your point but I'm not sure where else to put it since there is no "release" subsection. Naturally I would put this sentence at the end of the development section but it's not related to audio and "design" seems like the only suitable place to keep it. JAG  UAR   18:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand. I don't think this is necessarily a big issue though, just something that we could try to fix in the future.


 * Nights: Journey of Dreams received mixed reviews. This is a generalized statement lacking a proper reference.
 * This is a summary sentence which sums up the general outcome of reviews. I don't think there would be much point in attributing every citation after this sentence, and also I think the aggregate score supports it too. JAG  UAR   18:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd replace the GameRankings score with the Metacritic score, per WP:VGAGG.
 * Thanks, done. Not sure why I didn't do this before. JAG  UAR   18:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Good work on this article. Very close to supporting. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 21:37, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for the comments! I should have clarified everything above. Unfortunately I can't move the sentence out of the design section since there is no other place to put it, and I guess it sort of sounds relevant to design anyway. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do. JAG  UAR   18:44, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to support this nomination. I found it an engaging and interesting read. I've never played a Nights game but will try to look for one in the future. Great job on this! Also, would you mind commenting on my current FAC? ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 21:30, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Already done! JAG  UAR   21:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Tintor2
The article looks in good shape but there are some flaws that might make the article better.
 * Has there been talks about this game's sales? It might be good for the reception.
 * I'm afraid I can't find any sales figures, both reliable and unreliable. All I could find was initial sales figures for the first game... JAG  UAR   11:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The last paragraph of gameplay has six references for a single sentence. It feels like an overlink.
 * Oops. So it does! I've cut down three citations. JAG  UAR   11:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


 * In audio, there is the quote "flying in the air". I've been often told to use references after quotation even though the reference might be in the end of the paragraph.
 * I'm always wary of citation overkill since the paragraph is attributed to one ref but I've added one after the quote. JAG  UAR   11:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Other than that, I think the other users pointed the article's biggest flaws. Ping me when you edit the article or you have a different opinion about the issues I pointed. Good luck with the article.Tintor2 (talk) 22:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for taking a look at this! Unfortunately I can't find any sales figures (an impossible feat for most games) but I've addressed your other concerns. Luckily this article is a lot smoother after going through two reviews. JAG  UAR   11:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Giving you my support. Good luck with the article. I'm pretty sure it can pass its source review too.Tintor2 (talk) 11:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Source review from TheJoebro64
Overall, this looks fine source-wise; however, footnote #1 links to Sega Retro, a user-contributed wiki. Also, the release dates aren't sourced anywhere in the article. I'd remove this, add references for the release dates, and then the sources would pass. JOE BRO  64  21:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for taking a look at this! I've removed the Sega Retro ref. Don't know who put that in there. I've sourced the release dates in the infobox. Let me know if you find anything else. Thanks again. JAG  UAR   11:17, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Great! Nothing else appears to be a problem here, so I'll give this a pass. Nice work. JOE  BRO  64  19:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Image review
...actually, I already did so and all the points still apply. File:Nights Journey of Dreams gameplay.jpg's rationale suggests that the image is used to identify the work, but we already have an infobox image for this. File:Nights Journey of Dreams comparison.png is a partially non-free montage; the maintenance tag can be removed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:04, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks for looking at this again. Gameplay screenshots are essential—I've already included the Non-free use rationale video game screenshot per WP:VGIMAGES. The rationales I've used in both images are identical to those found in other FAs. The cover art in the infobox illustrates what the game's cover looks like the gameplay screenshot illustrates what it looks like. Did you want me to rephrase one of them? Also every time I remove the maintenance tag File:Nights Journey of Dreams comparison.png a bot adds it back. I've added a deny bot template to solve that problem. Thanks again! JAG  UAR   15:25, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That template seems fine. The issue with the bot is probably that the current license writeup and nuances are human readable but not bot readable; maybe has something to say about this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:40, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Harry

 * Can we combine the two footnotes in the lead?
 * Merged. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The levels are distributed equally between the two children characters Assume the reader hasn't read the lead and you have to explain everything from scratch. Tell us again what the plot is and who the characters are.
 * Per WP:VGORDER the gameplay should only contain snippets of the plot if it doesn't have its own section and is not too complex. Although it says that the gameplay section should come before the plot section, would it be easier to switch the two around?
 * That would solve the problem; I note that VGORDER says Here are a few ideas [...] they are no more than suggestions. Do not try to conform to them if they are not helping to improve the article. HJ Mitchell  &#124; Penny for your thoughts?  11:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've switched the two sections. It might seem a bit unorthodox but I've seen it done before. JAG  UAR   19:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


 * What does merge themselves into Nights mean?
 * I know this will always sound confusing so I rephrased it to make it clear that the player will later explicitly control Nights. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * which will awaken the player-character And I assume that's a bad thing? Why?
 * Added that it would end the game. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * What's the boost meter and what effect does depleting it have?
 * Added a short explanation of the effects of a depleted boost meter. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * allows two local players to battle each other I assume "local players" means two people in the same room using the same console? Can we link the term or spell that out? Is there any online multi-player option?
 * Linked Cooperative gameplay. I think the use of splitscreen further in the sentence would confirm that it would be two people in the same room, but sometimes you can't be sure! There is no online multiplayer for this game—since there is no mention of that in the sources I think it's best to leave it out of the article. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * two children separately meet Nights So Nights has escaped? The last mention is of him being imprisoned.
 * Clarified. They do indeed free him. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * originally outlined for the Saturn Suggest writing out Sega Saturn and linking; the last mention was in the lead
 * Done. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * 'after the Dreamcast's demise'' assumes knowledge that's not in the article. If it's relevant to the game, explain how and why the Dreamcast met its demise, and if it's not don't mention it, except perhaps to note that it had been discontinued/superseded/whatever the term is when you get to mentioning the console the game was released on.
 * That's a good point. I think explaining how the Dreamcast failed isn't relevant to this game, so I replaced "demise" with "discontinuation". JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * What does to reinforce Sega's identity mean?
 * After the Dreamcast's demise in 2001 Sega was no longer a console manufacturer and instead became a third party developer. The interview took place in 2003, which explains Naka's concern that Sega was losing their foothold in the industry. I've elaborated that Naka had hoped using the Nights license would reinforce Sega's identity as a video game developer, which is mentioned in the source. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * he had intended to base the next Nights game around a "special controller interface" Is there anything more that can be said about these plans? Did they go anywhere? And for the uninitiated, what's a special controller interface?
 * I think he's referring to a motion controller which ultimately became the Wii, so I reworded it to this. Nothing more is said about the rumour, but the source confirms that the game was going to be released for the Wii (then called 'Revoluton'). JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * What's the relationship with Shadow the Hedgehog and why was Journey of Dreams only begun after that?
 * Shadow the Hedgehog was developed by almost all the same staff who worked on Journey of Dreams. Rephrased to "after the release of Sonic Team's Shadow the Hedgehog". Not sure if I could word this better... JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * discontinuation of Sega's hardware Again assuming knowledge outside the article
 * Rephrased to "Sega's exit from hardware manufacturing". JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * the upcoming Wii was marketed So the Wii was still in development at this point? It's worth including some of the Sega/Nintendo console history here just so the reader has the full picture. Also, mention Nintendo since the last console mentioned was a Sega.
 * Done. I think Sega's hardware developing exit was made clear earlier on in this section, and mentioning some of Nintendo's console history would be straying off course. I think explaining the Wii as "Nintendo's upcoming console" should do the trick. I've always thought that this game was developed in tandem with the Wii along with many others, but nothing can confirm that. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * According to Iizuka, the entire game Sounds like his word is in doubt; perhaps ''Iizuka told [whoever]..."
 * Rephrased. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * with Iizuka affirming that full dialogue Ty to avoid using "with" as a connective like that (I tweaked another one earlier)
 * Tweaked. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * You highlight the contrast with Sonic but don't mention how the two are related. Were they developed by the same team? Don't assume the reader knows this.
 * Sonic Team are the developers of both Sonic the Hedgehog and Nights. I should have hoped that their name would be self-explanatory to the reader, but hopefully my earlier additions to the development section should have cleared any confusion. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * According to producer Takashi Iizuka, the team understood We already know who he is.
 * Removed. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * due to Journey of Dreams being "Due to being" is a lousy way to connect two clauses; not as as bad as "with", but still not FA-quality prose
 * Rephrased. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * an orchestral music an orchestral music??? A piece of music, perhaps?
 * Oops. Fixed. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Use a phrase other than "according to" once in a while when referring to something someone said
 * I've thrown in some synonyms. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * both he and Sasaki produced around 70 percent If they both produced 70%, then they produced 140% between them.
 * Added "in between them" at the end. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that helps. In fact, it makes it even less clear. How about "between them, they contributed 70%"? HJ Mitchell  &#124; Penny for your thoughts?  11:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The ending feels quite abrupt. Perhaps move the comment about further sequels to the very end just to wrap it up?
 * I think WP:VGORDER comes into play here again. I've never seen any video game article end with anything other than a reception section. A legacy subsection would have made a nicer ending, but since this game doesn't have one (nor did it receive any awards, unlike its predecessor) I couldn't end it in any other way. If this game had more information about its actual release I could have added more, but even so it would still have to be underneath the development section. JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I won't dig my heels in over this, but VGORDER does explicitly say it's a lis of suggestions. HJ Mitchell  &#124; Penny for your thoughts?  11:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've moved Iizuka's comment about a future sequel to the end of the reception section. Unfortunately I can't expand in on it due to limited information. It's a shame that this game doesn't a legacy of some sort otherwise I could have added some sort of satisfying closure to the article! JAG  UAR   19:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I made quite a lot of edits, mostly to improve the prose. More, frankly, than a reviewer would normally make to an FAC. Were it a longer article or were I feeling less generous, I might have opposed but I've still left you some work to do. Hopefully these comments and my edit summaries will be a useful guide. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts?  07:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments and copyedits, —I really appreciate it! I should have clarified all of the above. There were a couple of points which I couldn't comply to as it would conflict with WP:VG/GL, but other than that I've tried my best to address all of your concerns. Please let me know if I've missed anything or if there's anything else you'd like to add. Thanks again! JAG  UAR   14:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * thanks again for checking up on this. I've switched the plot and gameplay sections around, as well as moving future sequel sentence to the end of the article. VGORDER is a generally useful to me, but it's only a list of suggestions, you're right. JAG  UAR   19:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, I made one last edit and I think we're there. Support. HJ Mitchell  &#124; Penny for your thoughts?  08:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Coordinators
, is this one good to go? Wanted to make sure all bases are covered before this title's tenth anniversary in less than two months. JAG UAR   15:24, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.