Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nine Stones, Winterbourne Abbas/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2017.

Nine Stones, Winterbourne Abbas

 * Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

This article is about a Bronze Age stone circle in southern England. It will likely intrigue editors interested in archaeology, religion, and folklore. The article is fairly short and is already GA-rated. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Bruce1ee
An interesting read – just a few comments:

Infobox
 * Not sure if I like the map caption ("Shown within Dorset"); how about "Location within Dorset"?
 * I like your proposed change but I don't know if I am actually able to change it. It appears that "Shown with Dorset" is generated automatically when I include the map of Dorset. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Location
 * "Enclosed within iron railings ...": no mention is made of when these railings were erected; is this information available?
 * Unfortunately I do not believe that it is. That would indeed be information worth putting it into the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Bibliography
 * Some of the author's names can be linked to articles. I take it the links were omitted here because they were linked in the body of the article. I would link them here also, but that's my personal opinion.
 * I have added the links. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:42, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

General
 * There is an inconsistency with units of measure in the article: sometimes the primary unit is metric with imperial conversion; other times it's imperial with metric conversion; in some instances there is no conversion. WP:MEASUREMENT says "In non-scientific articles relating to the United Kingdom, the primary units for most quantities are metric ..." Distance, it seems may be miles, but, as I see it, everything else should be metric with imperial conversions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 * Very good point. I've made sure that metric measurements are always listed before imperial ones. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * There is inconsistency in the use of the thousands separator in years, eg. 3,300 and 3000. One or the other should be used.
 * I have changed "3000" to "3,000". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:42, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

—Bruce1eetalk 17:51, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your comments, Bruce1ee. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Support the prose. Thanks for your responses and edits – I'm happy with them. —Bruce1eetalk 07:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Dank
Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "located" (lots of these), "over a period", "A number of": Some reviewers object to these phrases in some contexts; I have no comment.
 * "silent and empty monuments": quote marks, but I can't tell from the text who said it.
 * I have added that this quote comes from Ronald Hutton to the text. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "The area of modern Dorset": Does this mean "modern Dorset"?
 * I used "modern Dorset" here so that readers would not presume that "Dorset" as a distinct demarcated region existed in the Neolithic/Bronze Age. I have nevertheless trimmed this down to "Modern Dorset". Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "thin scatter": If it was an actual thin scatter, remove the quotes. If you don't like the term, use a different term. If you're quoting someone, say who, but this isn't something I would quote.
 * I've added that the quote comes from Burl. I appreciate the concern here but I think that it would be difficult to paraphrase the term "thin scatter" with alternate wording and the term is perhaps a little poetic to be used without quotation marks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "The Nine Stones circle has been described": WP:INTEXT violation. INTEXT has been disputed a bit, but I think we can live with it. If it isn't important who said something, then the exact wording probably isn't all that important, either.
 * I have added that this quote comes from Gale. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * "In 1965 a woman from the Isle of Portland stated that her own father had always raised his cap when passing the circle.": I don't know why this is significant, or how it's related to the rest of the paragraph. Also, see the next bullet point.
 * It's a piece of recorded folklore associated with the site and has been mentioned by two separate books on Dorset folklore. Granted it may seem a little random but if the reliable sources mention it then so should we. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The last paragraph of Folklore, and all of Recent developments: I have concerns about FAC's "high quality" requirements ... is the say-so of a random person what we're looking for at FAC? But this is above my pay grade.
 * Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. Thoroughly charming. - Dank (push to talk) 20:26, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, sorry, I thought I was done, but there's something of a consensus now to look at tightening leads. I did some editing, and there's one more thing:
 * "The Nine Stones, also known as the Devil's Nine Stones, the Nine Ladies, or Lady Williams and her Dog": I didn't know until I looked it up tonight that our policy page WP:TITLE says that this is too many aliases for the lead sentence. They can be mentioned below the lead, or in the lead infobox, or in a note. No more than one alias in the first sentence would be ideal, if one is more common than the others. - Dank (push to talk) 02:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Technically, this nomination is out of process as the nominator had an article archived within two weeks. However, as that article had little review, and as this already has a support, I'm happy to let this one go rather than stop it on a technicality. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * My apologies Sarastro1 - it seems that I got a little confused with regard to this rule. I always used to think that there was a two-week embargo period that had to be observed following the end of any FAC nomination, till your comment to me here in February. I mis-remembered your comment and somehow thought that there was no two-week period at all following the termination of an FAC. It won't happen again. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Sabine's Sunbird
This is great. Some minor quibbles.
 * Location launches straight into a grid location. That's probably less useful or interesting than more descriptive information like Dorset or Southern England. I know you mention Dorset in the lead, but the lead should cover material found in the main body of the article.
 * I've added mention of Dorset into this section too. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The area of modern Dorset has only  is slightly odd, maybe just Dorset?
 * I adopted this prose because I wanted to avoid the impression that a region known as "Dorset" existed in the Neolithic or Bronze Age. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The Dorset circles have a simplistic typology, being of comparatively small size, with none exceeding 28 metres (92 feet) in diameter. This confuses me slightly. Are they simplistic because they are small? Also, what are they small compared to? Other stone circles? Other stone circles in Britain?
 * I have amended the prose here to the following: "The Dorset circles have a simplistic typology and are of a comparatively small size in comparison to other British stone circles,". Hopefully this explains things in an appropriate manner? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Why only metric in the lead, but then leading with imperial in the description?
 * Good point. I have added imperial measurements. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The site is in the care of English Heritage, when did they aquire it?
 * Unfortunately I have no idea, and cannot find any information about this in the sources. It would certainly make a good addition though, so hopefully future sources may mention it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Will be happy to support when my points have been addressed or explained. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your comments, Sabine's Sunbird. I'm glad that you were happy with the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Support. I note you still go metric imperial in the lead and imperial metric in the article. I'd probably go metric then imperial, as Britain is mostly metric these days, unless they are drinking or driving (but hopefully not both). Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:16, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Cas Liber
Taking a look now... support. nothing to complain about. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Rodw
Another interesting article. Apart from these minor issues I think the article does a good job in describing the context, history and structure of the site.&mdash; Rod talk 19:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Would it be worth including the [citation sheet from English Heritage of its scheduling as an [[ancient monument]]?
 * Are you referring to the fact that the website states that the site was scheduled in August 1916? The article already mentions the scheduling of the site, although refers to the year 1888, which is what a number of printed sources describe. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:46, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I had not spotted the discrepancy in dates (which may be differences reflected in our two unclear and possibly contradictory articles Ancient monument and Scheduled monument, but as Historic England is the government body responsible for the recording of these sites, its record of the site, which is a copy of that signed by the Secretary of State, should be included (at least as a reference or footnote).&mdash; Rod talk 21:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * A good idea. I have added he additional information. Thanks, Rod. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It could also be added to the Category:Scheduled Ancient Monuments in Dorset.
 * Added! Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Sarsen is wikilinked in both "Context" and "Description and design" sections. Cornwall is wikilinked twice in the "Folklore" section (minor quibbles)
 * Well spotted! Removing. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In "Antiquarian and archaeological research" it says "As of 2003, the site had not been excavated." can this be updated? to the best of my knowledge there has been no excavation in the last 13/14 years.
 * This is true, but the source in question is dated only to 2003. Stating "As of 2016" would therefore be stating something which is not in the source material provided. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough if there is nothing more recent which can be cited, then this seems reasonable to me.&mdash; Rod talk 20:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Isle of Portland could be wikilinked for those not aware of local geography
 * An excellent idea. Added link. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Could "Dolmen Grove Druids" be explained?
 * I've amended the prose slightly to "a modern Druidic group called the Dolmen Grove Druids." Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your responses. I can now support this article as meeting the criteria.&mdash; Rod talk 16:01, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Unless I've missed one, and once Rodw's comments are addressed, we need a source review, which can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Source review by Cas Liber

 * Earwig's clear.
 * References formatted consistently.
 * FN 25 - used thrice. material faithful to source.
 * FN 34 - talks of Broad Stone being either 2.8m or 10 ft long, which differs from the text, which says 2 m (6.6 ft)....
 * FN 35 - used once. material faithful to source.
 * FN 39 - used once. material faithful to source.
 * FN 55 - used once. material faithful to source.

Thanks for the source review, Cas. I believe that the discrepancy with regard to the size of the Broad Stone comes from the fact that two different sources are cited; John Gale's book and the Historic England website. I'm not quite sure which of these is the more accurate of the two. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:58, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking into the situation, it appears that the Historic England website claims that the stone is 2.8m or 10ft long based on a field archaeologists' 1955 observation. John Gale's observation that it is 2 m (6.6 ft) in length was probably made about fifty years later. To me that suggests that the stone has lost about 0.8m of its length over the intermittent half century, which perhaps is not surprising given that it sits next to a road and may well have been hit by passing traffic once or twice. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.