Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Olympic Games/archive4


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:32, 12 May 2009.

Olympic Games

 * Nominator(s): H1nkles (talk) 01:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because significant work has been done since its previous review, finished in February 21. Some of the review can also be found on the article's talk page. I have attempted to address all the concerns in this review, and have endeavored to improve the article beyond just the suggestions made during its FA candidacy. H1nkles (talk) 01:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Tech. Review
 * 0 disambiguation links were found with the dab finder tool.
 * 0 dead external links were found with the links checker tool.
 * As checked with WP:REFTOOLS: the following refs are duplicated and appear in the ref section more than once, a ref name should be used instead.
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -- T ru  c o   21:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

All done as suggested. H1nkles (talk) 23:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments:
 * The hatnotes on the top pointing out to the current/previous/next games are long, can they be shortened somehow?
 * I removed the next Summer Games to be held in 2012, a bit far off for the hatnotes.
 * I'm not sure what the numbers in parentheses in the Olympic Games host cities add. My initial reaction was confusion - perhaps a separate table or paragraph showing which countries have the top or interesting number of times they have hosted would be better?
 * Perhaps simply putting the final number of times the city and country has hosted either the summer or winter Games would be an acceptable alternative? I'll make the change and see what people think.  I'm reticent to do another table if it can be avoided.
 * I agree with not introducing another table on reflection. How about eliminating the numbers entirely and then writing a paragraph below with the interesting things these numbers convey: "The United States has hosted the Olympics 4 times, the most of any nation. The cities Paris, Stockholm, Los Angeles and London have each hosted the game twice. After 2012, London will have hosted the Olympics three times – taking the lead. [.. and then some more ..]"?
 * I would eliminate the Youth Olympic Games host cities table (crystal-balling and all that) and re-add it in 2010 once the games have been played for the first time.
 * I'm fine with this, will delete.
 * The prose of the first paragraph of "All-time individual medal count" seems a bit awkward and doesn't really flow (to me at least).
 * I made some edits that tighten up the prose, not sure if it's any less awkward but it is less words, which usually helps.
 * References are occasionally repeated for successive sentences, perhaps they can be merged? ref 24 in Winter Games is an example. Otherwise the citation frequency is good, not over-cited like so many current FA candidates.
 * Removed one ref since the same one appears one sentence later.
 * Link Black Power salute in the caption of File:Carlos-Smith.jpg perhaps? I know it's in the text, but there is where I'd expect most readers to look for it.
 * Your suggestion makes more sense than the raised fist link.
 * I have not looked into prose or Manual of Style questions in detail.
 * The article went through a thorough MOS and prose review in the previous FAC.
 * Thank you: interesting article—and as one that gets a hundred thousand views a month, it's a perfect one to put some effort into. henrik  • talk  17:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your time in reviewing the article. H1nkles (talk) 17:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks - my above comments have been addressed. I did some changes myself to the lead and hatnotes. My thoughts were to keep the lead focused on what the reader is likely to be interested in - most people will likely read the lead more thoroughly and then skim the rest.
 * A few more comments:
 * Perhaps consider changing 'performance enhancing drug' in the lead to the shorter and perhaps more common but maybe more colloquial doping? (I'm a bit unsure what the connotations are in English, not being a native speaker. Feel free to ignore this suggestion)
 * The original wording was "doping" but it was changed after an editor raised POV concerns. Doping has an inherently negative connotation.  I would be doing a disservice to try and reiterate his arguments here, and at the time I felt it didn't harm the article to make it more PC.  This certainly isn't a hill I'm willing to die on so I don't have a problem with it being changed.
 * Changed to "doping" with the link still to the performance enhancing drugs at the Olympics article.
 * I changed the List of top medal winners to contain 10 instead of 16 entries, the article is rather long and 10 is a nice round number. Let me know if you have any objections :)
 * That's fine, I think it was originally 10 and then others came along to expand it to include all athletes who have won at least 7 gold medals. Why 7?  I don't know, seems like an arbitrary number to me.
 * Why are the notes for the Olympic Games host cities table not in the notes section? They don't appear to be of such importance that they must be close to the table for understanding. I'd rather see some interesting factoids in that space (see above suggestion).
 * Not sure, I don't think it would harm the article to put an in-line cite there and move the notes into the notes section.
 * I'm trying to format the table with the notes going in as in-line cites and showing up in the notes section but I'm not very adept at tables and the formatting isn't quite right. I'll keep working at it though.  H1nkles (talk) 23:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The punctuation and sentence structure in some more places is a bit boring with sentences that look like this: "First this. Then that. And then another thing.". I'd like to see a bit more varied and flavorful structure with commas, semi-colons and en- or em-dashes as alternatives to the full stop (where appropriate, it can be easy to overdo it). An example of a section that could be improved like this is Host cities and Champions and medalists.
 * I've done a bit of editing, especially in the Host cities section. Does it match your thoughts?  H1nkles (talk) 22:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * After this, I'll be happy to support. :) henrik  • talk  20:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I've hit the concerns you outline above. I'm not very experienced at tables so I apologize if the table overhaul isn't up to snuff.  Let me know if there's anything else you feel is hindering the article.  H1nkles (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'm happy now: Support. Good job! henrik  • talk  07:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the time you spent reviewing this article and for your support. H1nkles (talk) 16:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Comments - This is my second time reviewing this article, so I'm not as fresh to it as I would like to be. Still, I want to review it again because it's one of the more important sports articles we have. May be a while before I can return, but I do want to come back and have another look at some point.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 19:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Two capitalization issues early in the third paragraph: first word of "International sports federations" shouldn't be capitalized, while the last word of "National Olympic committees" should be.
 * Done
 * "The host city is responsible to organize and fund a celebration of the Games consistent with the Olympic Charter." → "The host city is responsible for organising and funding a celebration of the Games consistent with the Olympic Charter."
 * Ancient Olympics: "when the emperor Theodosius I declared that all pagan cults and practices be eliminate". Missing letter in the last word.
 * Done
 * 1896 Games: The stadium name is presented differently in the text from the photo. Which was it?
 * Changes and adaptations: "The homogenous nature of this edition was a low point for the Olympic Movement, even though it was in Paris that women were first allowed to compete." I don't see the contrast between the two parts of this sentence that's implied. The presence of female athletes wouldn't have made the games more international if they were almost all Americans, right?
 * Done, I don't know how those two sentences ended up being together.
 * Youth Games: Remove comma from "held in July, 2007 in Guatemala City."
 * Done
 * Replace comma after "These Games will be shorter than the senior Games" with a semi-colon.
 * Done
 * International Olympic Committee: Spell out the following abbreviations: FIFA, FIVA, and USOC.
 * Done
 * Effects of television: For the dollar figures, this format is recommended in the Manual of Style: US$394,000 (note that there is no capital D and no space). Also put in a non-breaking space for the $3.5 billion NBC contract, like I used here (click edit button to see formatting).
 * Done. I also added non-breaking spaces to the other instances of numbers followed by millions or billions.
 * Thanks for your review. H1nkles (talk) 16:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That was longer than I would have liked. Better late than never, though.
 * "the television lobby demanded concessions from the IOC in order to boost ratings." "in order" can be safely chopped. Another "in order" comes up two sentences later. Sentence after this has a "being" that is unneeded. Please check for wordiness like this throughout the article.
 * Excess Brundage and Samaranch links in this section; both are linked already in Commercialization.
 * "When Brundage retired the IOC had US$2 million in assets, eight years later the IOC coffers had swelled to US$45 million." Change the comma to a semi-colon.
 * Commas before and after "led by Peter Ueberroth".
 * "with the goal of creating an Olympic brand." This is a noun plus -ing structure; please see this guide for information on how to fix it.
 * "Specific criticism was level at the IOC...". Levelled?
 * Sports: "There are recognized sports have never been on an Olympic program in any capacity." Add "that" before "have".
 * "The goal being to apply a systematic approach to establishing the Olympic program for each celebration of the Games." "being" → "was". It's a fragment the way it is now.
 * "and costs of competing the sport." "competing" feels awkward. Is "holding" better?  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 00:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for returning and for more edits. Most of what you've reviewed was new since your previous FAC prose review from a few months ago.  The wordiness issue is one I've always dealt with as a writer.  I'll return to the article and continue to excise unnecessary verbage.  All of your suggestions have been implemented.  Thanks.  H1nkles (talk) 15:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Last round:
 * "Neither sport attained the required two-thirds vote and were not promoted to the Olympic program." Awkward sentence, especially with the contrast in tenses ("Neither sport" and "were").
 * Reworded.


 * Use of performance enhancing drugs: "By the mid-1960s, sports federations were starting to ban the use of performance enhancing drugs, in 1967 the IOC followed suit." Change the second comma to a semi-colon.
 * Fixed.


 * "Both urine and blood tests were used to detect not only banned substances but also blood doping." Instead of a wordy "not only...but" structure, why not use a simpler structure like "used to detect banned substances and blood doping."? Come to think of it, wouldn't drugs used for blood doping count as banned substances?
 * I removed the blood doping reference altogether.


 * "Several athletes were barred from competition by their National Olympic Committees prior to the Games, only three athletes failed drug tests while in competition in Beijing." Again, the comma should probably be a semi-colon.
 * Fixed.


 * Host cities: "with all applicant cities being asked" is another noun plus -ing sentence structure, like the one from before.
 * reworded sentence to remove noun+ing.


 * "Once the candidates cities are selected". Make "candidates" singular.
 * Fixed.


 * "There are thoroughly analyzed by an evaluation committee specifically established for the effect." What effect? I'm not seeing anything that explains this. Is a different word supposed to be there?
 * Reworded and took out the bad end of the sentence.


 * "but only by cities outside Europe and North America on seven occasions." It would make more sense to move "only" to before the word that it is intended to be matched with, in this case "seven".  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 02:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good catch, all your suggestions have been addressed. Thanks again for the review!  H1nkles (talk) 03:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * Please spell out lesser known abbreviations in the notes. Yes, they are linked, but you don't want your readers to leave your article, they might never return (I noted VANOC, but there may be others)
 * Fixed, I searched through the rest of the notes and addressed one other abbreviation issue. As far as I could tell those were the only ones.
 * Current ref 93 has a bare url in it, as does ref 95 105, 110, and 111. I looked at them and tried to fix them but couldn't figure out what was wrong.
 * I fixed the issue, it was a formatting problem with the dates, everything should be in order, good catch!
 * What makes http://www.moscow-life.com/moscow/olympic-games a reliable source?
 * Removed source and added a Deutsche Welle source instead.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for catching those issues. I hope I have addressed everything that concerned you.  H1nkles (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments. Let's see if this time is the lucky one for this valuable article to get its star back. I'll post a section-by-section analysis, but I'll do it in parts, since the article is quite big. You can review these concerns in the meantime:
 * Lead:
 * Since I think this section could use an overall copyedit, instead of pointing out every little change, you can compare my version with the current one. The major change was the clustering into three paragraphs. I removed "The IOC navigated the Cold War and the overt use of the Games for political gain." because it seemed a strong statement that could be placed, developed and sourced in the rest of the article.
 * I like your rewrite of the lead, I know it's current edition is a bit awkward at times. I would like to suggest a couple of modifications:
 * There are several editors who do not believe the IOC and Coubertain were the originators of the Modern Olympics. They return from time to time and add in a reference to Evangelos Zappas, who they claim first started the Modern Olympics.  Much debate has gone into this issue and so I intentionally left who initiated the Games vague in the Lead and gave credit to the various parties in the body of the article.
 * I would suggest breaking the second paragraph into two, per WP:LEAD an article of this size can have four paras in the lead. In reading your version it appears as though the second para addresses two subjects: The evolution of the Modern Games and the Olympic Movement and the IOC.  It moves from past tense to present tense and I think it would be more appropriate if they were separate paragraphs.  Otherwise I would copy and paste as is.  Do you object to the above modifications?  H1nkles (talk) 16:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I tried to address those two items. Check again my userpage. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I love it! Do you want to do the honors of inserting it or should I?  Thanks for your work on that.  H1nkles (talk) 00:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can do it. But in doing so, please change the wikilink of "international federations" to List of international sport federations. Parutakupiu (talk) 16:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ancient Olympics:
 * "Certain" (adjective) → "certainty" (noun)
 * Rewrote first sentence and removed "certain". I think it is worded better now.
 * "It is was Heracles..."
 * Fixed
 * "...Olympic stadium and as an honor to Zeus."
 * Fixed
 * "After the stadium was complete,..." → "Following its completion...". It avoids close "after...complete(d)" instances.
 * Good catch, fixed.
 * You can link "unit of distance" to Stadia (length), but it's optional.
 * done
 * "... is 776 BC, this is based..." — replace comma with semicolon. Moreover, is there a ref for this statement?
 * Added ref for this assertion.
 * I already did the semicolon. Reywas92 Talk  22:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "From then on, the Olympic Games became important throughout ancient Greece . They reached, reaching their zenith in the 6th and 5th centuries BC."
 * Fixed
 * "..., known as an Olympiad, and this period..." → "... and this period, known as an Olympiad,..."
 * Fixed
 * The 3rd paragraph could start with the last two sentences from the first paragraph ("From then on... 6th and 5th centuries BC", these would be moved), but beginning like "Since their establishment, the Olympic Games became important...". Then would come "... centuries BC, but gradually declined in importance as...".
 * Fixed with some modifications of my own. H1nkles (talk) 16:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Some scholars date...", "... others believe that..." — reword as per WP:WEASEL
 * Fixed
 * Since their demise date is not certain, it's better to say "After the demise of the Olympics, they were not held again for another 1,500 years until the late 19th century."
 * Agreed and changed.
 * Many individual refs include more than one source. Not too sure about this, but I think it ought to be one source per ref.
 * I think this is a matter of preference, I have broken out the combination cites that I could find in this section. H1nkles (talk) 16:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Forerunners and revival:
 * "Olympic games" — Capitalize. Moreover, shift "nationwide" to before "... Olympic festival held annually..."
 * Fixed, changed "nationwide" to "national", seems a more fitting word.
 * "In 1850,..." and "Later, Zappas..."
 * Rewrote these sentences for flow and to fix chronological problems.
 * Panathenian, Panathenean, Panathenaic, Panathinaiko. Which one?
 * It is supposed to be Panathenian stadium, in a search of a article this is the name given in the body of the article. There is a reference to the "Panathenaic" stadium in the title of one of the references, but I don't think I can change that since it is the title.  Is it confusing?
 * The Panathinaiko Stadium article states the form "Panathenaic", as does the Stadia.gr site.
 * "In the search French historian Baron Pierre de Coubertin was searching for a reason for the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871). He, historian Baron Pierre de Coubertin theorized that..."
 * Good catch, fixed.
 * "In 1890, after attending..."
 * added comma
 * 1896 Games:
 * Point wikilink in main template to 1896 Summer Olympics, to avoid a redirect.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Changes and adaptations:
 * "After the initial Following the success of the 1896 Games..."
 * Break up the link "St. Louis in 1904" → link St. Louis to the city (it avoids linking just afterwards) and 1904 to the Games.
 * "... which were held at the same time and location."
 * "The Intercalated These Games are not officially recognized..." and "... and no later Intercalated Games further editions have been held since."
 * All fixed as suggested. H1nkles (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Paralympics:
 * Point wikilink in main template to Paralympic Games, to avoid a redirect.
 * "In 1948, [notice comma just before] Sir Ludwig Guttman, determined to innovate new ways to rehabilitate promote the rehabilitation of soldiers".
 * All fixed as suggested, added a little work of my own on this one as well. H1nkles (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Youth Games:
 * "...will feature athletes who are 14–18 between the ages of 14 and 18 years of age."
 * Remove blank space just before ref #31.
 * Recent Games:
 * Remove "noticeably" as per WP:EDITORIAL. Can you find a source for this paragraph?
 * Good catch, removed "noticeably", added cite and removed unciteable information. H1nkles (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * General remarks:
 * Make notes format more consistent by employing the same style for all of them. By this I mean using only "[author] (year), page(s) X" or "[author] (year), p(p). X" or even "[author] (year), X" throughout.
 * Good observation, I am going through the article and changing all cites to the "[author] (year), p(p). X" format. H1nkles (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Great job! I only have two comments, which shouldn't be too hard.
 * Comments
 * I know you've been working on it for a long time, but I'm not sure I fully like the lead, especially the final two sentences. I think there should be more emphasis on the sports. I know it should be general in the lead, but I think you could give the current number of sports and athletes, and also mention medals. I think some of the Recent Games section should be there. The lead's not too long, so there could be more info in it to summarize the entire article.
 * There is a rewrite of the lead in progress as we speak, it is more succinct and to the point. It does not go into the sports in as much detail as you indicate above.  I am working on it with another editor and once it is implemented I will look for ways to incorporate your suggestions if that is ok with you.
 * The lead has been redone, I will try to accommodate your suggestion regarding sports. Let me know what you think.  H1nkles (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think really Evangelos Zappas and William Penny Brookes need to be in the lead; they aren't as influential to the entire article, and they especially don't need to be right in the third sentence. "Olympic festivals inspired" would be enough. The new sentence with the sports is good, but I really think that the sports - the main event of the games - should be in the first paragraph. Reywas92 Talk  21:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, I know you've had to cut down much of the article and that it's in the subarticle, but you should say that the Ancient Olympics originally had only footraces, wrestling, etc., with more focus on sports.
 * I have added a sentence on sports competed at the Ancient Games along with two cites. Please see if this meets your suggestion.  Thank you for your input, I really do hope to garner enough support this time around to get it passed.  H1nkles (talk) 19:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent article overall! Reywas92 Talk  22:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Everything looks great! Reywas92 Talk  19:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose 1a (prose) .Comment I note from other review comments that the article has had a thorough prose check. I'm sorry to say that in spite of this, the prose still has numerous rough edges in the lead and in the first few sections, which is as far as I've got. Here are examples of what I found:-
 * In the lead: "The second, known as the Modern Olympic Games, was first revived in the late 19th century in Greece." Two points: the word "first" is redundant. And I think the word "revived" is wrong. The second generation, known as the Modern Olympic Games, was inaugurated, not revived, in late 19thC Greece
 * Also in lead: "As a result the Olympics began to shift away from the pure amateur athlete as envisioned by Coubertin." Surely, the shift was away from the amateur ethos, or from amateurism, not from the amateur athlete?
 * See below regarding the Lead.


 * Ancient Olympics section: "Greeks gave several rather incompatible foundation legends" This is awkward and obscure; which Greeks "gave" these legends?  I assume the meaning is that different legends exist about the origins of the Ancient Olympics. There is no reason why these different stories should be "compatible".  Suggest you replace this phrase with the simple "Different legends exist;"
 * Fixed


 * Same section: "One story claims that after Heracles completed his twelve labors, he went on to build the Olympic stadium and as an honor to Zeus." Not grammatical
 * Fixed


 * Same section: "The most widely held estimate for the inception of the Ancient Olympics is 776 BC; this is based on inscriptions found of the winners of a footrace held every four years starting in 776 BC." "Widely held estimate" is curious phrasing - perhaps you mean "accepted"? I think the word "date" needs to be worked in somewhere, e.g. "The most widely accepted date estimate..." etc. Could you then indicate where these inscriptions were found?
 * added more info and incorporated "accepted" and "date".


 * Forerunners and revival: "Until that time, attempts to create a modern version of the ancient Olympic Games had met with various amounts of success at the local (one, or at most two, participating nations) level." The sentence is clumsily worded, particularly towards the end, and needs rephrasing.
 * I removed the sentence as unnecessary, I also combined the, now very short paragraph, with the following paragraph.


 * Changes and adaptations: "entered a doldrums". "Doldrums" is a permanent plural; there is no such thing as a doldrum or "a doldrums". You could say "entered the doldrums", or you could avoid the word by saying "entered a period of stagnation".
 * Fixed

I think someone needs to go through the prose carefully, to identify and correct other prose problems. I will look myeslf, but it may be a few days before I can.

Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have implemented your suggestions. As you noticed, the article has undergone a couple of prose reviews including one by User:Giants2008, part of which is here and the other part is here.  That said there is obviously more to do and I will go back through the article to give it more polish.  I appreciate any further work or suggestions you can make as fresh eyes usually tend so see more issues.  I know that your opinions carry strong weight here so I do hope to be able to bring the article up to your expectations.  H1nkles (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops I didn't talk about the lead. There is a rewrite of the lead going on as we speak.  I'm working with another editor on this and when it is implemented I hope it will address your concerns.  The newer version will tighten up the prose and make it more concise and focused.  H1nkles (talk) 20:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll look again in a couple of days. Brianboulton (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI, the lead has been updated. H1nkles (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Additional comments: My earlier prose issues have been addressed. While it is clear that much recent work has gone into the article, there are still many examples of inadequate prose. Some examples:-
 * Impact of TV section: "They also expanded the swimming and diving programs..." without defining who "they" are.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Commercialization section: This sentence "Brundage believed the lobby of corporate interests, would allow them to unduly impact the IOC's decision-making" has an unwanted comma. Nor is it clear who is allowing "them" to unduly impact etc
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Same section: "He helped to establish The Olympic Program (TOP) in 1985..." "He" is presumably Ueberroth, but Ueberroth hasn't been mentioned for several sentences.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Criticism: "The allegations also served to sour many IOC members to Sion's bid..." You don't normally sour "to" something, you sour against.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Medal presentation: "the best three athletes" is too vague for covering all sports, some of which are team events. Perhaps "The winner and the second and third-placed competitors..."
 * Good catch it's been fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Politics: "Contrary to its founding principles, the Olympic Games have been used..." "Its" and "have" don't go together grammatically. "Has" would sound utterly wrong, so I suggest "the" founding principles.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Apart from prose questions there are other problems:-


 * Many nbsp violations - see MOS
 * I'll work on this. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why say the 2008 games were staged in "Asia" rather than Beijing?
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ref [143] is an uncited footnote
 * Ref [144] actually cites Ref [143], I'm not sure how best to format that, if I'm wrong then I'll need some guidance. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The claim that it was not until the Summer 1960 games that the Soviet Union merged as a sporting superpower doesn't square with the Soviets winning most medals at the Summer 1956 Olympics in Melbourne.
 * Good catch, I've fixed it to 1956 and added a new reference. H1nkles (talk) 18:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Opening ceremony: It might be worth mentioning that the athletes' parade is always headed by Greece.
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As you have a table of the most individual medal-winners, it might be interesting to include a table of the top-ten medal-winning countries.
 * Interesting thought, I'm terrible at tables so I would need some aid on that. I'll see what arm twisting I can do before the article's fate is decided.  H1nkles (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I won't have time to continue monitoring this article, so I am striking my original oppose. You do seem to be making great efforts to get the article right, and I am confident that you will also respond positively to these later points. Brianboulton (talk) 10:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by Jakob.scholbach (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, since the last FAC, this article has improved much! Congrats. While I had major stomach-ache last time, this time I think the article does give an overall satisfying picture. However, there are still some (mostly minor) spots to work on.


 * Sports section: first it says about 400 events. Later that it was limited to 301 events (and does not tell that this number has been revised later). How should the reader reconcile the two?
 * The first number is the total for both Summer and Winter. The second is the Summer Games program. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 15:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The three major components of the Olympic Movement beyond the IOC are described in further detail below" -- do you mean the directly following (brief) explanation? If so, consider rewording this. Somehow I kept looking for more info down in the article. Also, I find the section a bit repetetive. First you give the list of the three, and then you give it again with brief explanations. I guess there is a way to avoid the redundancy?
 * I removed redundant wording earlier in the paragraph, instead leaving just the list of the three components of the Olympic Movement. I also made it clearer that the explanation of those components was immediately following this paragraph.  I think that will be clearer and less redundant.  H1nkles (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the redundancy is removed. "in further detail as follows" is, however, still not to the point. You didn't describe it before, so "further detail" is misleading. Perhaps just write "The Olympic movement consists of three major members:"? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Noted and I've fixed it. Instead of members I used "elements" but members would work fine as well.  H1nkles (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is a great improvement over the last FAC that now you deal with commercialization questions! However, the structure is still not perfect, in my view. First "Impact of television" and "Commercialization" are not, IMO, proper subtopics (and thus should not be subsections) of "IOC". Also, impact of television and commercialization should somehow be in the same section, right, because it's kind of two shoes of the same pair? I would consider making a section "IOC" (including the lead section of the current section, and the "Criticism" section) and another section "Commercialization" or something like that.
 * I've broken out the "commercialization" and "impact of television" subsection into a new "Commercialization" section. If I'm reading the critique right you would prefer to see both subsections molded into one section, what I'll do is write an intro and then create one subsection entitled "Impact of television and marketing".  Would that suffice?  H1nkles (talk) 19:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The two sections are good.
 * Ok the work has been done though I'm not 100% on the flow of the new section, please let me know if it is better than the previous version. H1nkles (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about "An uneasy relationship exists between the corporate world and the International Olympic Committee. " though. As far as I can see from the article, the relationship is very close, if not intimate between business and IOC. Perhaps reword to "While early Games did not chiefly rely on funding by corporate sponsors, more recent Games gradually shifted toward being financed (or something similar) by international sponsors, which in turn seek to link their brands to the Olympic Games."
 * Perhaps the "Commercialization" section could do with a few subsection headings? Currently the only one is fairly long and does not cover all aspects of the section. I'd try the following: 1) little section lead (as it is, perhaps rewording the first sentence as indicated or similarly). 2) Budget -- " During the first half of the 20th century the IOC was run on a small budget. ...  in their publications and advertisements.[73]" 3) Impact of television 4) Criticism (last paragraph) Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Great suggestion, I reworded the intro para using your suggestion and some work to blend the rest of the para with the first sentence. I also broke the subsection down the lines you suggest.  I think it accurately reflects the contents of the section.  H1nkles (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "However, at the 2000 Summer Games in Sydney there was a sudden drop in ratings" -- It would be great to tell how many viewers they had then. Otherwise the sudden drop stays a little bit mysterious.
 * I'll try to find this information. H1nkles (talk) 19:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was unable to find specific numbers but I was able to find a source that indicates the ratings were the lowest since 1968, since I previously state that the 1968 Summer Games drew 600 million viewers I'm hoping this will suffice. H1nkles (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In the all-time individual medal count, it would be good to have some indication whether the athletes listed there are male or female, I find. Perhaps put (m) or (f) into the sports column?
 * I added and (m) or (f) per your suggestion with an explanation in the intro paragraph. H1nkles (talk) 22:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:01, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I already suggested this in the last FAC round, and like to reiterate: the "Host cities" section provides little or no added value compared to the subarticle. I would remove the table.
 * This suggestion is a bit tricky to implement. Per your previous suggestions I expanded the prose to discuss the bid process.  I posed your suggestion to the Olympic community talk page after the previous FAC attempted failed.  Here is the brief discussion, it received two responses in favor of keeping the table.  You may notice that it has been significantly revamped to become more streamlined and user-friendly.  Is this sufficient?  I do hope this would not keep you from supporting the article.  H1nkles (talk) 22:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't want to dig my heels in. (The arguments at the discussion you mention don't convince me at all, though.) Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps consider somehow linking to Olympic bid in that section? I suspect there is a subarticle describing the selection process? (I don't find it right now.) If so, it should be linked.
 * Done. H1nkles (talk) 22:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "The IOC members gathered in Session have" -- should probably by "in the Session"
 * Fixed. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 15:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Former Yugoslavia and Canada are the only nations to have received the Winter Games only once, ..." -- I'm not sure this is a notable fact.
 * Removed. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 15:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The article still does not say anything about the Olympic village. it should, in order to be comprehensive.
 * I added a couple of sentences about the Olympic village to the "Recent games" subsection. I'm not sure this is the best place for it, but aside from creating a new subsection somewhere I couldn't figure out a place to put it.  Perhaps under the "sports" section?  H1nkles (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hm. I also think it is not exactly where it should belong, but I don't see a good alternative right away. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Youth Olympic Games": You use future tense throughout. Why? (e.g. "The Youth Olympics will feature athletes between the ages of 14 and 18")
 * "The first Summer Youth Games will be in Singapore in 2010, while the inaugural Winter Games will be hosted in Innsbruck, Austria, two years later." -- Jonel (Speak to me) 15:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. Perhaps you move the last sentence up to the beginning of the section? I really didn't realize that the y.games have not yet started. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Winter games": The opening sentence to that section is a bit odd, I find. You should probably first say what the Winter games actually are, in case people don't know.
 * Done. H1nkles (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually I just see the same problem with the youth games. Perhaps have "Starting in 2010, the Olympic Games will be complemented by Youth Games, where athletes of age between 14 and 18 will compete. The Youth games were conceived ... "? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done as suggested. H1nkles (talk) 04:41, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "The IOC desired to create equity between winter and summer sports." -- this seems to be contradictory to "The scope and scale of the Winter Olympics is smaller." later on. Perhaps reword to "The IOC desired to create an alternative venue for winter sports" or something like that?
 * Good catch, I've removed the reference to "equity" as it isn't really equal given the difference in scale. I reworded the sentence to try and balance it a little better.  H1nkles (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Lead section: "at an Olympic Games" -- is this correct? (I'm not native, so I'm not sure, but it reads weird.)
 * Reworded. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "in which thousands of athletes" is redundant given the later "There are over 13,000 athletes that compete"
 * Removed. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Likewise with "from nearly every nation" vs. "that nearly every nation on Earth is currently represented"
 * Removed. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Somehow I'd like to know where most athletes come from. Could you provide that piece of information?
 * Do you mean what countries traditionally send the most athletes? H1nkles (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. I don't know if that's an interesting information, but if -- say -- it is about as unbalanced as the distribution of host cities (geographically), it might be an idea to say a word about that. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a little blurb about it in the host city section. The info is a little hard to piece together but for the most recent summer Games the top three were the US, China and Russia, which isn't quite how the concentration of host cities breaks out (at least for Russia and China).  I could not find info on overall athlete numbers, which would likely be different since China wasn't been involved in the Olympics until the '80's.  H1nkles (talk) 05:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All right. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Every four years, the Olympics" -- somehow it should be every two years, right? On the other hand an individual athlete will probably only be able to participate every four years, but this is not implied by the current wording.
 * Changed it to two. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps wikilink Olympic medal in the lead? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 16:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A final minor thing: "The bomb was set by Eric Robert Rudolph, an American domestic terrorist, who is currently serving a life sentence at ADX Florence in Florence, Colorado." is probably off-topic (at least where he serves the sentence!). I'd trim that down. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. H1nkles (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. I'd like to support the article becoming featured. Kudos to H1nkles and Jonel, whose work will be of use to wide audiences interested in this multi-facetal topic. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for taking the time to review the article and for your support! H1nkles (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Support worthy of returning to the FA. igordebraga ≠ 21:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. H1nkles (talk) 00:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There are two sections with the same name (Criticism). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent catch, it was a recent change and I've renamed one of the sections. H1nkles (talk) 00:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Image comments
 * File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-05472, St. Moritz, Winterolympiade.jpg could be placed on the left hand side so the players are looking into the text
 * Unfortunately this conflicts with WP:ACCESS, which requires all photos under third-tier sub-headings to be right-aligned. H1nkles (talk) 20:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File:CyclingTeamPursuitBeijing2008.jpg appears to have the flags facing the wrong way, is there a better image?
 * I haven't been able to find a free image of a medal ceremony, I'll keep looking though.


 * File:Carlos-Smith.jpg fails WP:NFCC#8 hence FAC#3 (I am also a little suprised that a picture from the 1936 games isnt included, possibly the most notable games of all time for politics)
 * Removed photo, I'll have to see if a 1936 Games photo will fit with the text. H1nkles (talk) 20:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The 1936 Games (summer or winter) aren't mentioned in this section, which is probably an oversight. I'll try to add a little something and see if there's an appropriate photo to include.  H1nkles (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've found a compelling photo of Jesse Owens receiving one of his gold medals, [[Image:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-G00630, Sommerolympiade, Siegerehrung Weitsprung.jpg|right|thumb|Jesse Owens on the podium after winning the long jump at the [[1936 Summer Olympics]]]]. Does this meet the appropriate criteria to be included?  H1nkles (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File:Ap_munich905_t.jpg fails WP:NFCC#8 hence FAC#3
 * Removed photo. H1nkles (talk) 20:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File:1998 Winter Olympics medals.JPG appear to be derived works of non-free material, but are licenced as free
 * I'm not photo expert so I usually error on the side of safety, I've removed the photo unless a clear free version can be added. H1nkles (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The article claims that cities host the games, yet host countries are used in File:Summer_olympics_all_cities2.PNG & File:Winter_olympics_all_cities.PNG
 * Good catch, I've reworded the first paragraph to include more information on the host nation. I've also renamed the section to cover both the host nation and host city.  Will that suffice?  H1nkles (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The images are all on one side, which I feel unbalances the article
 * I've moved some of the photos to the left side. More work to come.  H1nkles (talk) 20:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Why was File:Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg chosen as the Flag_of_the_Netherlands for the 1927 games?
 * Fasach Nua (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As near as I can tell from the article that is linked above, The original tricolor of red-white-blue was official until 1813 when the House of Orange took over and authorized the official use of both the red-white-blue tricolor and an orange-white-blue tricolor. Both appear to have had the same rights though the red-white-blue edition seems to have been given preference.  My interpretation would be that we're still historically accurate to keep the red-white-blue tricolor that currently is on the article.  I may be reading something wrong here though, and I'm no expert at flag history so if I'm in the wrong please point it out to me and I'll make the fix.  H1nkles (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be more concerned with the flag used by the Dutch Olympic committee at the time, not the state guidelines (all other image related queries addressed approprietly) Fasach Nua (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for doing this image review. I was waiting for one to be done to make this review comprehensive.  I will address the concerns raised here one by one.  H1nkles (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The 1908 games were in United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland, not United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland Fasach Nua (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good catch, I've updated the link, I've left United Kingdom as the display, but switched the page link to the one you've suggested, which is historically accurate. Thanks.  H1nkles (talk) 17:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Is use of technology in events worth a mention here in the main? For example, the unprecedented level of broken records in the swimming due to LZR swimsuits (amongst other advances in other sports) could become quite a prominent aspect from now on. However, I'm not sure if this information is too general and better off on a sport/swimming article etc. What do you think? Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 22:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.