Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/On the Mindless Menace of Violence/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2017.

On the Mindless Menace of Violence

 * Nominator(s): Indy beetle (talk) 02:30, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is about "On the Mindless Menace of Violence", a speech delivered by United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy on April 5, 1968, the day after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.. The speech has been greatly overshadowed by the famous remarks Kennedy delivered the night before in Indianapolis. Regardless, it was still considered by two of Kennedy's speechwriters, Jeff Greenfield and Frank Mankiewicz, and two prominent journalists, David Halberstam and Jack Newfield, to be one of the senator's best (it's my personal favorite, quite frankly). I've pulled together various sources to complete this article, including several journal and magazine pieces, as well as one book strictly devoted to analysis of the speech. At this point there are few improvements I see I could make without the suggestion of other editors. Other than that, I think it is ready for FA status. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:30, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Rkennedy05.jpg: where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The original uploader didn't give me many details but forwarded me to the original photographer, who I have now contacted to confirm the copyright status of the photo. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:54, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have received a reply from the creator of the photo, Evan Freed. I had emailed him "According to the license, "This work is in the public domain because it was published in the United States between 1923 and 1977 and without a copyright notice." Can you confirm that this is true[...]?" He responded, "I can confirm all on that." I also asked if he knew when/where/how it was originally published, which he didn't respond to, but said, "Give me a call." How should I proceed? -Indy beetle (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If you feel comfortable doing so you could call him, but his statement should be sufficient for our purposes. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Midnightblueowl
Response to  -Indy beetle (talk) 06:44, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "and presidential candidate" - is this perhaps the right description, given that he had yet to receive the actual Democratic nomination? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ""On the Mindless Menace of Violence" was a speech given by United States Senator and presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy at the Sheraton-Cleveland Hotel before the City Club of Cleveland on April 5, 1968, the day after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.. " This is quite a long opening sentence. How about cutting it into two, shorter chunks. ""On the Mindless Menace of Violence" was a speech given by United States Senator and presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy. He delivered it in front of the City Club of Cleveland at the Sheraton-Cleveland Hotel on April 5, 1968, the day after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.."? Or something like that? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:48, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "On April 4 civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated" - King's full name has already been mentioned, and the prose does appear to assume a fair bit of information on the behalf of the reader. Perhaps "On April 4, King—a prominent African-American civil rights leader—was assassinated" or something of that nature? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "Kennedy dismissed politics" - I'm not sure that this is the best way to describe what Kennedy was saying. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "conditions in America" - I would definitely use "United States" over "America" here, given that the latter is also used in parts of Latin America to refer to the two American continents. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In the opening paragraph of "Background", the full name of "Martin Luther King Jr" appears three times. Only the first time is necessary; the others would probably work better as just "King". Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * " aide James Tolan and took place in his room.[" - Does this mean Tolan's room or Kennedy's room? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:29, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "turned heated as leaders began accusing " - perhaps this would read more smoothly as "became heated as leaders accused"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "replied. "Well," - why the full stop? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "a call Kennedy from on " - "a call from Kennedy on" Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "Americans, especially regardless of race" - especially regardless? Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:46, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "described how America", "violence in America would persist" - again, I'd change this to "United States". Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:46, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "Kennedy listed no specific programs and gave no specific solutions to the problems at hand,[19] as such would not bring an end to violence.[35]" - what does the latter part of this sentence mean? I think that it could be reworded for clarity. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:46, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "In 1999 in Colorado" - "in... in". Let's reword this.
 * Perhaps an image of Martin Luther King Jr would be a good addition to the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:46, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) I don't feel like that statement is inaccurate, and I'm not sure how it could be rephrased. He was campaigning for the presidency, even if it was without the endorsement of the Democratic Party.
 * 2) Done.
 * 3) Done.
 * 4) Agreed. Revised as "Speaking for only ten minutes before 2,200 people, Kennedy outlined his view on violence in American society. He criticized both the rioters..."
 * 5) Done.
 * 6) Done.
 * 7) Revised to now say the meeting "took place in Tolan's room."
 * 8) Done.
 * 9) Corrected.
 * 10) Done.
 * 11) Removed "especially".
 * 12) Done.
 * 13) Revised as "Kennedy listed no specific programs or proposals to address the problems at hand, as he believed there was no single solution that would bring an end to violence."
 * 14) Revised as "In 1999, Marian Wright Edelman delivered a speech in Colorado during which she quoted Kennedy's address."
 * 15) Done.

Thanks Indy. On the basis of the prose, I am happy to offer my Support for this article becoming an FA. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:23, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
Support. I've copyedited a bit; fee free to revert if I made a mess of anything. Murphy is out of alphabetical order in the sources; can you fix that? Otherwise this looks FA-quality to me, though I can't speak to comprehensiveness. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Response to  -Indy beetle (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed the source listing.

Comments from Giants2008

 * Aftermath: There's one date here that is formatted differently than the others (10 April). As this is an article on an American subject, I'd suggest switching this to April 10, as opposed to the current international-style formatting.
 * The full Drury and Crouch cite has all caps in the title that need to be fixed (the two dates). Other than those couple minor points, the article looks really good. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 22:26, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Response to  -Indy beetle (talk) 23:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) Done.
 * 2) Done.
 * Support – A very engaging article, which I think meets FA standards quite comfortably. Nice work. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 22:05, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Coord note
Has there been a source review for reliability/formatting? If not you can request one at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Source Comments from Ceranthor
Response to  Support then. Sorry, didn't realize they were print sources.  ceran  thor 12:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * What makes History Is Now Magazine a reliable source?
 * For consistency's sake, should the Hayes, Times Recorder, Daily Reporter sources have an accessdate to match other online news/magazine source formatting?
 * References look good.  ceran  thor 00:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) History Is Now Magazine is, according to its site, "a group of friends, amateur historians, who have always been fascinated by and passionate about history." As for their crowd of writers, "Anybody who can write with flair, has a brain, and a knowledge of history can write for us – no experience is required!" Some of their staff is paid, some isn't. The magazine they produce currently isn't in circulation, but they still post articles on their website, produce podcasts, and publish books (under their own press). Though they're focus is in American and broad international history, they are based in the UK with a phone number and mailing address. The best I can use to argue for its reliability is inclusion of a list of sources used appended at the end of each article, including the one I cited. I've removed this source and used info provided by the Vital Speeches of the Day, a more established magazine/organization.
 * 2) I've added an access date for Hayes. As for the Times Recorder and Daily Reporter, both of those were scans of prints. I didn't add an access date because they were print. If this is unacceptable than I can pinpoint the access dates I just thought it was only customary to add such dates for online sources. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.