Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Operation Tractable


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:22, 13 October 2008.

Operation Tractable

 * Nominator(s): Cam (Chat)

This article concerns the Canadian half of the final offensive of the Battle of Normandy, from the capture of Falaise to the closing of the Falaise Pocket. Passed its GA on June 16, 2008 (followed by copyedits from User:EyeSerene and User:SGGH), passed its ACR 10 days later, underwent a peer review shortly after that. Minor copyediting for MoS and prose tightening have been ongoing throughout the last half week by myself. I believe that it meets the criteria for Featured Article. Esteemed Regards, Cam (Chat) 18:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * What makes http://montormel.evl.pl/ (refs 11, 16, 20, 22, and 31) reliable?
 * Memorial Mont-Ormel is the memorial/museum/archives situated on Hill 262 commemorating the Polish 1st Armoured Division
 * What makes http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-rod-nor-cam-e.htm reliable?
 * Juno-Beach Centre, the Canadian memorial/museum/archives in Corseilles-sur-Mer commemorating Canadian actions throughout the Battle of Normandy. Both are the official sites of museums on the conflict, I would think that that would make them reliable enough for usage.  Regards, Cam (Chat) 23:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look good. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  19:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Support
 * By contrast, Polish casualty figures for Operation Tractable are known. In their movements against Chambois and Mont Ormel, the Poles put their losses at 325 killed, 1,002 wounded, and 114 missing.[31][14] Prior to the Chambois and Ormel actions on August 14–18, they lost a further 263 men.[23] This brings the total Polish toll for Operation Tractable at 1,704 casualties, of which 588 were fatal. -> Is there any non-Polish source for Polish casualties, to compare and contrast?
 * I do know for a fact that Roman Jarymowycz mentions them in "Tank Tactics". I do not, however, have the pg. # for the statistic on me at the moment.  I'll take a look if I can find the book again.  All the best, Cam (Chat) 23:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good luck! JonCatalán(Talk) 21:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk) 23:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Operation Tractable began at 1200 on August 14, with 800 Lancaster and Halifax bombers bombing German forces." Awkward sentence structure.
 * Time inconsistencies: "Operation Tractable began at 1200" but "At 7 pm on August 20, 1944".
 * "On morning of August 20"—Needs a the.
 * "Composed of close to 20,000 men and 150 tanks before the campaign, it had been reduced to a mere 300 men and 10 tanks." "mere" sounds POV.
 * "Prior to the Chambois and Ormel actions on August 14–18," "Prior to"-->Before, it's simpler.
 * "a 20 minute ceasefire"—"20 minute" should be hyphenated.
 * "Although the first day's progress was slower than planned, Operation Tractable resumed on August 15, with both armoured divisions pushing southeast towards the hills east of Falaise." Awkward.
 * All Fixed (I think). Cam (Chat) 01:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment
 * Is the 2nd SS Panzer Corps the correct formation as 12th SS Panzer Division was part of the 1st SS Panzer Corps ? I can see where later in the article 2nd SS Panzer is correct with the details about DAS REICH etc.
 * Ah, probably should have been more clear about that. 1SS-PC was attacking from inside the pocket to try and get out, 2SS-PC was attacking from outside to try and get 1SS-PC out. Cam (Chat) 23:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This should be changed to opposition from units of the 12 SS Panzer Division. The Hitler Youth did not take part in any fighting in Normandy. The division was made up of ex member of the HY, who had to be over 18 to join the Division like many of the 18 year olds in UK & US divisions of the time. [ref]Reynolds, Michael. (2007). Steel Inferno: I SS Panzer Corps in Normandy. Spellmount Books. ISBN 978-1-86227-410-5(will find the page number if required)[/ref]
 * On August 16, the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division broke into Falaise itself, encountering minor opposition from Hitler Youth units
 * Fixed. Even then, some sources do mention Hitler-Youth battalions in Normandy (although that varies from source to source.  Per Exemplar, Bercuson & Copp mention it, as does Van-Der-Vat, but D'Este, as far as I know, doesn't).  Cam (Chat) 23:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Support If these points above can be clarified Jim Sweeney (talk) 13:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. My sourcing issues have been addressed. Karanacs (talk) 02:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I found the article very engaging (I had to fight the temptation to skim ahead and find out what happened to the Polish forces on Mount Ormel!). I am, however, concerned about the sourcing. I understand that the websites referenced are official museums.  However, unless the content that you are citing was written by published historians, I do not consider those to be exceptionally reliable sources.  (I am, for example, working on the article Battle of the Alamo, and I will not rely on the website of the group that maintains the museum and archives).)  They are essentially self-published by the museum.  There is also a minor issue with the MOS: All measurements should be in standard and metric.  There are several measurements given only in miles.  Karanacs (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In Rebuttal:


 * Both of these source issues are relatively easy for me to fix. While I can't eliminate all of the references to those sites, I can definitely decrease my reliance on them (on account of having purchased a few books I didn't have when I first wrote the article).  I'll do my best today & possibly tomorrow to reorganize some sources.  I can also cite some stuff from the books I already used instead, although it will make for a much less diverse reflist.  I'll also try to look a bit deeper into who wrote the Memorial Mont-Ormel site & JBC site.  All the best, Cam (Chat) 23:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Alrighty, I have almost completely removed the JBC from the reflist (only 2 references compared to 8 before). The section on the Battle of Hill 262 is proving somewhat more difficult, but the rest is proving relatively easy. Cam (Chat) 23:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your hard work in resourcing much of the article. I am still troubled that a statistic (the number of deaths in the campaign), is sourced to a self-published website.  The few remaining references to the websites don't really involve controversial data, but this one could be.  Is there any way that could be sourced to something else? Karanacs (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * fixed. I found it amid the footnotes of Jarymowycz's book on WWII Tank Tactics. Cam (Chat) 23:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Conditional Support

It's a good article, Cam, and I only have a few niggles to iron out before I wholeheartedly support the article.


 * 'The action at Falaise was the largest encirclement in the West during World War II, though it pales in comparison with the large encirclements on the Eastern Front, such as during the initial stages of Operation Barbarossa.' - That needs a citation
 * Some of those redlinks could do with stubbing out, IMO
 * Aftermath section could do with being a bit larger when I look at it; it seems a bit too brief really. Skinny87 (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * All conditions met, moving to full Support Skinny87 (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak Support - Love the prose. Nevertheless sourcing needs work. (per Karana). &mdash; ceranthor  ( strike→ ) 14:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Support I see a featured article, although one that could perhaps have some work with the sources. At any rate, you got my support. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.