Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pain fitzJohn/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 15:46, 4 March 2012.

Pain fitzJohn

 * Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... after patient research, as well as lots of copyediting, I think i've got a pretty complete view of this rather elusive Henry I's "new men". Pain was a relatively lowly nobleman who rose in Henry's service to control a very strategic position in the Welsh Marches, as well as one of England's most famous castles - Ludlow Castle. He and his brother were powerful magnates, but Pain died before his brother and did not found a long lived family as his brother did. The article is a complete new start, as I started it back in 2011, I've done all of the research as well as most of the writing. It's been kindly reviewed at GA, as well as having a nice peer review and other reviews by a number of editors - including Fifeloo, Nikkimaria, Brianbolton, and Ruhrfisch. It also has benefited from comments from Nev1 about Ludlow as well as a final polish by Malleus. Note - I'm competing in the Wikicup, but this article will NOT count for points, as most of the work/research/etc was done last year. I present to you - Pain fitzJohn, an nobleman who mixed with kings and earls in his lifetime but has largely fallen from historical sight since then. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources review
 * Spotchecks carried out on ODNB sources, no issues
 * Multiple citations should be in ascending sequence, e.g. [[16][24] not [24][16]

Otherwise all sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Support: I copyedited the article and made a few review suggestions, duly implemented. An excellent peek ito our vanished past when knights were bold...etc etc. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is Wrightman's opinion of the man given his own paragraph? And the closing one? - hahnch e n 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If I could find other opinions on Pain's career or character, I'd have included them also. Wrightman's the only one who editorialized on him - originally I had it in with other paragraphs, but it doesn't really fit well anywhere. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If you think his opinion is important, that's fine, I just thought it stuck out, possibly as undue weight given that Wrightman's book is focused on the Lacy side. - hahnch e n 23:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Support Comments from Noleander
 * Explain/define in lead: "..one of King Henry I of England's "new men".".   Reader should not have to click on link to determine the significance of the "new men" term.  Either define/explain right there, or later in lead.
 * Ambiguous: "Pain was probably the eldest son of John fitzRichard..."  - Ambiguous: need to specify what is uncertain:  the "eldest" or that his father was JFR?
 * Grave site: "He was buried in Gloucester Abbey .." - Is he still there? Can tourists visit the grave?  Any photo available?
 * Clarify: " ... as they are frequently found witnessing the same charters and other royal documents." - I presume "witness" means that they signed a document. Probably should explain that for lay readers.
 * Define: "...and that the king "stationed them above earls and famous castellans" - I'm pretty well read but I have no clue what a castellan is.  Someone who owns a castle?  Someone from Castile?
 * The more familiar French form is "Châtelain", and perhaps this could be pipelinked. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Verbose: " is not securely confirmed in " - The "securely" seems redundant. Remove?  Or, if need to keep it, change to a more conventional adverb like positively or absolutely etc.
 * Verbose: "... she was described as being a widow." - Could be simpler: " ... she was a widow" or "... she was described as a widow".
 * Define: "... Henry gave Pain the lordships ..." - Define "lordship" for lay readers. Or, at least, link to WP article.
 * Awkward wording: "... the date of their granting to Pain is unknown." -  How would E. B. White phrase that?
 * Define/explaiin: "...his payment for danegeld in 1130 ..." - Shouldn't have to click on "danegeld" to comprehend the meaning of the sentence.
 * Punctuation: "On 10 July 1137 Pain was killed by a javelin blow to the head, during an ambush by the Welsh ..." - Move comma from after "head" to after "1137".
 * If Ealdgyth moves that comma I'll buy a plane ticket to the US, hunt her down, and kill her. Malleus Fatuorum 21:50, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * And I will personally conduct the burial service. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * All-in-all a fine article. I'm having a hard time finding any shortcomings.
 * I've dealt with all of the above except for the "securely" and the comma where I was threatened with death... securely here is the correct "technical" term - using another would be less correct to the source. And I'm not touching the comma .. not after my two main copyeditors threatened me! Thank you for the review - sorry it took a few days to get back, I"m still fighting some cold/flu/something that's driving me nuts. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed my "Comments" to "Support". Regarding the comma:  my real point (which may have gotten lost in the humor :-) was that introductory time phrases should normally be followed by a comma, as in "On July 5th, the army advanced ..." because speakers usually pause briefly at that point.  Not a big deal.  --Noleander (talk) 18:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)::::
 * I think that's something Americans tend to do rather than the wider English-speaking world. Malleus Fatuorum 18:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Image review
 * It's a bit hard to read some of the town names in the map, though I don't know there's much you can do about that
 * What source or data set was used to create File:WelshMarchesMap.jpg? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I used my handy Michelin Europa map - isbn 2061005764. Didn't need a huge map for this. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Support with nitpicks
 * "is not securely confirmed" - would suggest "clearly confirmed" or similar
 * Do we know if/how Hugh and Walter de Lacy are related (since Walter has no article)?
 * "Her kinsman Gilbert de Lacy was the son of Roger de Lacy, who had been banished from England in 1095 and his English estates confiscated; he had though retained his properties in Normandy; Roger's English possessions were given to his brother Hugh de Lacy, from whom Sybil had inherited them" - would suggest making "Roger's English possessions..." a new sentence
 * Be consistent in whether you use en- or emdashes for sentence breaks
 * Compare FNs 19 and 31. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I really prefer "securely" - this is the normal terminology for the status in historical circles. The de Lacy family article - sucks. And the state of research into the de Lacy's is fluid. I'd rather not get into a long digression on more de Lacy's - Sibyl's bad enough. Malleus got the Roger's English possessions bit and the dashes - thank you Malleus!!! Fixed the spelling issue in the footnotes. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.