Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul Gondjout/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:29, 2 October 2008.

Paul Gondjout

 * Nominator(s): Your friend  the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is an article about an important Gabonese politician for which little information is present. In my own biased eyes, it is short but comprehensive and well-written, though I want to see if you think it meets the criteria. Your friend  the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 *  Comment Oppose (see below) My friend, might need a careful copyedit; some of the claims as currently stated are a little unclear:
 * 'and founded the Cercle amicale mutualiste des evolues - can you state when, and what the group was (politcal party, lobby group, dating agency, revolutionists or whatever) and who they represented. Google throws up nothing.
 * LOL that's hilarious. I expanded on this a bit, though there really isn't much available. User:Nishkid64 can send you a copy of Reed via email if you wish. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 20:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah; I was going to suggest you contact Nishkid64, but ye already know each other. Yes please send and I can work with it. Ceoil  sláinte 01:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * which was adopted by aspiring politician Leon M'ba - adopted? And was it M'ba or the BDG that over threw Gondjout?
 * "joined", then? the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 00:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "joined" seems a bit weak my friend; I assume he took over the group at an early stage? Ceoil  sláinte 01:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Eventually, but not when he first joined. Forgive my utter lack of copyediting experiance, but what would you suggest. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 19:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Aubame and Gondjout fled Libreville ,[31] but were later captured. - When, where and by whom. How long were they on the run.
 * Before September 20. The first source entions that he is on the run, and the second mentions he's in custody. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 19:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * From the night of 17 February to the early morning of 18 February 1964, 150 Gabonese military personnel, headed by Lieutenant Jacques Mombo and Valére Essone, arrested President M'ba, President of the National Assembly Louis Bigman, and several ministers. This is very odd, I'm trying to imagine 150 officers, lead by the president, seperatly arresting 8 men.
 * Reworded. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 20:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Soon, however, M'ba overthrew Gondjout as head of the BDG. Again, put in exact dates as far as possible.
 * Not possible. Nothing major (eg a book) has been written on the man, and every mention of him has been in passing. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 23:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Instructions were given to transfer M'ba to Aubame's electoral stronghold, Njolé By whom.
 * Clarified. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 23:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The last sentence of the lead tells us He served as Minister of State during the abortive 1964 Gabon coup d'état and was sentenced to 20 years hard labor. Grand but what happened while he was in prison and afeter he got out. Did public perception of him change while in prison or was he forgotten, did he serve the full 20 yrs, was M'ba still in power when he was released.
 * Oh, did I say that he was sentenced when he was really acquitted? That was a mistake; fixed. No we really don't know anything from when the trial occured to Gondjout's death. We have a few passing mentions of his wife's death in 2006 but coverage of his life just skips a time period. I'm assuming he stayed out of politics (I certainly would if I were him) and lived in Libreville,. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 23:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In November 1960, a crisis broke out within the majority party. After deciding to reshuffle the cabinet without consulting Parliament. No context or motive given what so ever.
 * I tried to explain this better. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 00:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * where he was supplied, according to US ambassador to Gabon, Charles Darlington, "with all the whisky and beer he [could] drink and all the girls he want[ed]". As there is no earlie indication of the man's character this comes accross as at best trivial, at worst propaganda used against him.
 * Propaganda? This was written by the US ambassagor to Gabon during this tumultuous time period. Darlington's basically making a statement that being in jail really wasn't as bad as it seemed for Gondjout. I see no reason why this should go. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 00:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Again the claim: Upon his release, M'ba appointed Gondjout to the mostly symbolic posts of President of the Economic Council.[18]. Why did he do that? Seems starange, appointing an ex prisoner and enemy of the state to a hight profile (at least) position.
 * "in part to silence any threat to M'ba's power." the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 00:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 250 kilometres from Libreville North south east or west - fill in the detail.
 * North. Clarified. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 01:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gondjout was sentenced to two years in prison. What were the charges (2 years seems lax for treason), any details of the trial, public reaction, and so forth.
 * Nope. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 01:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Have a read through it again and try and imagine you know nothing of the man or his times. Would you be able to get the jist? As a small point, some of the page no.s in the refs have full stops after them, some don't. Small thing, but annoying, I'm afraid. Ceoil  sláinte 04:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I cleaned up the refs somewhat. I know, this article is not a great represetation of this man's life, but that is due to lack of sources available. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 01:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: The image Afrique 32.JPG has been nomed for deletion. Ceoil  sláinte 09:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks like it will be kept. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 01:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * After reading this closer, once you get past the bad prose the article is slight, has logical errors and seems confused as to the signifance of events, eg the 1964 Gabon coup d'état, where the article does not seem sure of the signifance of roles of the participants, or their motives, or of the wider historical context, or of the later consquences. Its fact fact fact, but they are not weaved together into a convincing narrative. I'd say this is a good start, but more research needs to be undertake. I'm switching to oppose, but don't take it too bad, you have the outline of a stong article, just need a bit more elbow greece. Your still my friend, though ;) and I hope to see an stroger version back here in the future.  Ceoil  sláinte 12:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Like what? I put a brief intro to the 1964 coup, though I'm trying not to focus on it. Basically: Gondjout was Minister of State during the coup. That's about all the souces tell us. I've contacted User: Biruitorul to copyedit it. Could you help, too? the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 01:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments by jimfbleak Just lead for now
 *  Laure Gondjout - why is she not linked at first mention?
 * Now it is. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Cercle amicale mutualiste des evolues - as above, no idea what this is at first mention
 * Clarified. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gondjout served in the French colonial administration since 1928 - "had served" (or "from" instead of "since") perhaps
 * Done. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * which was adopted?
 * Reworded. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He served as Minister of State during the abortive 1964 Gabon coup d'état and was sentenced to 20 years of hard labor along with the coup leaders received. - doesn't make sense, "received" can't be right.
 * See above. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A interesting article on a neglected continent, but the prose needs work still jimfbleak (talk) 06:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE.
 * Fixed. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 02:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Current ref 5 (Laure Gondjout...) is lacking a publisher, and needs to state that it's in French
 * Although the title Laure Gondjout Secrétaire particulière du président should warn the reader its French. It states so in the citation tempate, and the template contains the publisher also, but templates being templates (ie best avoided) the info is not transcribing. Ceoil  sláinte 14:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Current ref 36 requires a subscription. (http://fr.allafrica.com/stories/200707110025.html)
 * Is that an issue? Ceoil  sláinte 14:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Should just be noted that it does, it doesn't disqualify the ref. Although if it's a online source of a item also available in print, it should give the print version information too, so folks can find it at a library. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks Ealdgyth, makes sence. Clarified. Ceoil  sláinte 15:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Otherwise sources look okay, links check out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose This is a biographical article and is missing detail on nearly 30 years of his later life. Isn't this partly a representation of the content in the general 1964 and other articles translated from French wiki? Isn't the 1964 Gabon topic covered enough now? I find it very odd that given the very reason why the 1964 article was not promoted, you have now nominated this for an FA. I think there is a big difference between a GA and an FA. Why do you think this would pass FA with sources such as Echec aux militaires au Gabon en 1964 and Biteghe 1990 which you admitted haven't been verified in the way they hadn't in the 1964 article? I'm not questioning that the sources aren't reliable, I;m just wondering why you think this has a chance of passing FA when the 1964 coup article didn't which partly uses the same sources? The Bald One     White cat 10:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ed, look, I'm giving constructive criticism, I barely even passed this as a GA, what makes it an FA? All the best. ;) &mdash; Sunday  23:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's comprehensive. Really, if one could expand it 1kb, that would be amazing. Considering an article of this size is even being considered for FA gave me the inspiration. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 00:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Nishkid currently has the sources, if anyone want to verify them. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 14:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Did Nishkid write it though? Is it your own work, or partly a representation of another person's work rather than based on primary sources? Don't get me wrong I think it is a very good article given the circumstances and lack of info available on Gabonese subjects and the encyclopedia is far better for having it, I just think there are numerous problems which affect an upgrading to FA which others are bound to pick up on. Best The Bald One      White cat 14:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nishkid and I both wrote it. While I am the main contributor in the "history", I stole forked from his work. the editorofthewiki (talk/contribs/editor review) 10:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.