Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul Gondjout/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:42, 16 October 2008.

Paul Gondjout

 * Nominator(s): Editorofthewiki
 * previous FAC (02:29, 2 October 2008)

I am again nominating this for featured status because it is the most comprehensive account of this man's life, online and offline. The article failed FAC before mostly due to prose concerns. Now that User:Ceoil copyedited it I think the problem is resolved. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "The article failed FAC before mostly due to prose concerns" What about the concerns about verification and translation? Have these been addressed? The Bald One        White cat 11:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As of last FAC, though Awadewit can still fact-check it. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 20:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm confused - have you actually read the source material or is this another translated article? Considering the ongoing problems with the fact check at the other translated article we are working on, we need to be sure that someone has seen all of these sources and checked them against the article. Awadewit (talk) 21:01, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Giggy's

comments Giggy (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Date of death doesn't show in the infobox
 * Fixed. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just be aware of commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Afrique 32.JPG
 * It looks like it will be kept. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "and served in the French colonial administration from 1928, and founded the Cercle amical et mutualiste des évolués de Port-Gentil in 1943" - rule of thumb; avoid more than one "and" in a sentence. This sentence as a whole is clunky, and the commas don't help.
 * Changed to "The elder Gondjout began his service in the French colonial administration in 1928. In 1943 he founded the Cercle amical et mutualiste des évolués de Port-Gentil (roughly translated as Mutual Friends for the Evolution of Port-Gentil), an organization that enchouraged and utilised the talents of educated Gabonese." ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "and re-elected on 18 May 1952—both times as an independent candidate—and served until his term ended on 7 June 1958" - again... check throughout
 * Copyedited. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "the then President M'ba" - I think you can remove the "the"
 * Done. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 22:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "and the French forester Roland Bru" - again
 * Done. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 22:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Cercle amical et mutualiste des évolués de Port-Gentil" - I would translate that to English too (Something like mutual friends for the evolution of Port-Gentil? I'm fr-1 :))
 * See above, my French is worse than yours. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Paul Gondjout's son, Vincent de Paul Gondjout" - the way this is written implies that Laure Gondjout wasn't his son... these few sentences need rewording. Oh. Laure Olga Gondjout is a she. *embarrassed face* Still the prose here is a bit awkward. Also, the mother's name isn't known? Nothing about his marriage etc.?
 * Changed to "On 18 December 1953, he became the father of Laure Gondjout. She would later become a prominent politician[6] as would his son, Vincent de Paul Gondjout,[7] and nephew, Georges Rawiri.[8]" The wife is mentioned in the "Post coup d'etat" section, though we don't know when they married and I didn't know where to put it. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ""In November 1960[16] or 1961, called for a constitutional amendment" - say what...?
 * We don't know the date. I have conflicting sources. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * under the pretext of a conspiracy, he declared a state of emergency" - since it's a new paragraph, say who did
 * Done. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Upon Gondjout's release, M'ba appointed Gondjout" - change the second naming to "him", maybe?
 * Done. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Image comments: The Gabon image is under a deletion request, per unlikely it was self-made/has lapsed copyright. Image:Gondjout.jpg is a bit lopsided and has lots of unnecessary whitespace around it. To me, this old revision looks better, why was a new copy uploaded? Otherwise it has an appropriate rationale and license. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 13:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I had to crop it, as the opiginal was copied directly from the source. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  14:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * What makes http://gaboneco.com/show_article.php?IDActu=7342 a reliable source?
 * It is published by the Gabon Ministry of Communications and Information. Noted. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources appear to be ok, though considering my understanding of French (or lack thereof), I might be missing a lot.


 * Question - Is this a translated article? If so, I would suggest a note-by-note fact check of all of the sources. Considering the problems that we are encountering at Talk:Félix Houphouët-Boigny, such a project unfortunately seems necessary. Awadewit (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Considering the exchange here and the fact that the editor does not speak French (which means he could not have verified all of the sources in the article), I am going to have to oppose this article. This article has apparently been translated, but the sources have not been verified. I am surprised that the editor did not consider this necessary, considering the problems we have uncovered at Talk:Félix Houphouët-Boigny, another article he is working on. While translating articles is a laudable effort, particularly when it ensures that en.wikipedia will have articles in underrepresented areas, that does not excuse the editors from checking the factual accuracy of those articles. Awadewit (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I use Google Translate. I can speak a little French, and other than Biteghe all the sources have been accessed by me. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How do other people feel about Google Translate? I know that I never rely on it and language instructors can go on for hours about all of the mistakes it makes. Shall I call a French instructor tonight and start amassing a list? Awadewit (talk) 21:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. I know Nishid (who mostly translated Leon M'ba, though I helped too) relied on French speakers for help. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 21:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You are confusing two issues, I think - the translation of the article and the checking of the sources. It seemed to me like you were saying you relied on Google Translator to translate the sources that you checked - is that what you meant? Or did you mean that you used Google Translator to translate the article? We were only talking about the sources, so how the article was translated was not really an issue. Awadewit (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Both. It was initially translated from Leon M'ba, and then I checked the (online) French sources, while Nishkid checked Biteghe and posted fragments at Talk:1964 Gabon coup d'etat. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 22:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As part of my comments above I ran something through Google translate; |en|Cercle%20amical%20et%20mutualiste%20des%20%C3%A9volu%C3%A9s%20de%20Port-Gentil clearly it can't really be trusted without reviewing closely the results it produces. Giggy (talk) 07:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I can read French s litte, just not speak it. Running things through Google Translate helps me translate parts, though I alawys take it with a grain of salt. Also, the cercle organization was not mentioned at all in the French sources; it is mentioned in Reed 1987. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 10:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So, to be absolutely clear:
 * 1) Have all of the sources for this article been checked? That is, has every note been checked to see if it supports the claim made in the article?
 * Yes. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 00:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) To what extent were the French sources translated using Google translator? Awadewit (talk) 00:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whenever I used a French source, though I went back to the original text for clarification purposes. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 00:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I share Maria's and Giggy's concerns about relying on Google translator. It is not a precise tool. Moreover, I would like to emphasize that although I have passed an exam that certifies that I am proficient enough to read French (graduate students are required to do these sorts of things), I would never attempt to translate an article or even judge whether a source supported a claim. The nuances of the language just escape me - I wouldn't trust myself. Awadewit (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Brief comment: I really dislike the red link in the lead. Can the article be created? More comments to come, if I'm not too busy. -- how do you turn this on  23:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirected to the party that absorbed it. I've been wanting to create that article for a long time, though I simply don't think enough is available on it. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 23:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * This is for the record, although I posted it on Maralia's talk page last night. I'm very concerned that the article and its references have been translated using Google translator and "a little French". In every extensive article I've written, I come across sources that interpret facts differently or contradict each other. I read only English and I'm confused sometimes about which one to trust. The barrier of language is so significant that it would frighten me to have to defend the article here at FAC. Should it ever appear on the main page and readers who are fluent in French find a mistake, I would be mortified to learn that I had mistranslated, or misunderstood something due to my poor language skills. I imagine a native French-speaking editor who was just as shocked as I would contact the ANI page, causing a ruckus for the FA project. Wikipedia already has enough problems earning the confidence of readers. Featured articles are supposed to deal with that directly: an FA is cited to the hilt. But again, most readers assume that those who wrote the article have a familiarity with the language. --Moni3 (talk) 11:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Doesn't the writer of the related articles on French wikipedia speak english? Couldn't he read through? Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he is very bad at it. This is useless. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose &mdash; I haven't read the article. I haven't even looked at the page. However, after I read the above discussion, I have no other choice but to oppose. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable seeing this as an article, let alone a potential featured article. It is unacceptable to write a page whose references were translated using Google Translator, which has shown to be incorrect and unreliable much of the time. How would we know if the entire page is factually inaccurate? Is there any way of telling, other than assuming Google Translator is translating the text correctly? An article that leaves the reviewer asking these sorts of questions cannot possibly become featured. As Moni said, what if this were to pass FAC and make it to the Main Page with factual errors that neither you nor the reviewers were aware of? Should a reader familiar with the subject/language stumble upon an error, the featured article process, the reviewers, the author, and the FA director will then be responsible for allowing an article to be promoted with such errors. So, for now, I'm opposing based on 1C, until a French-speaking editor can verify the content. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  16:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The thing is people are centering in on verification issues here, but its not as if thats the only problem and that its a brilliant article. It is a biographical article and the mid section in particular on the coup really talks about Aubame and Mba and the event than it does Paul Gondjout. It is just a representation of another article to seemingly fill it out, and if you take out that paragraph or remove the information which tells you about the event rather than directly speaking from Gondjouts perspective you are left with a very short article that gives you some basic details about his early political career and then a bottom section which tells us little about his later years; thirty years of his life are unaccounted for. The same goes for that unrelated photograph from 1959 jto bulk out the article when it is completely unrelated to the event, rather it just tells me, this is how french and Gabonese soldiers look together. How I ask does this enchance my understanding of Paul Gondjout? The first paragraph is a very good one but for me this is where it ends. The article really centers on the 1964 coup and given that most of it does not directly discuss Gondjout this shouldn't even have been proposed for an FA. I appreciate that this is an article on Gabon and "nobody knows anything about his later life" but I can't emphasise enough that FAs are supposed to represent our best most resourceful work and the flaws in this article I'm sorry to say are quite serious. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 17:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course no French reviewers are gouing to verify this, because they don't care about the subject matter. Of course, this is an article about a very important politician, but why wasn't it created until 11 August (by me). Your oppose is pretty unactionable, and as I've said before, most of the facts are backed by my English souces by my computer. However, more is available in French because that is the language spoken in Gabon. Even with the French sources nothing is mentioned after the trial until a few blurbs about his wife's death and a gevernment source that mentions but the place and date of death. I think it is pretty paranoid of you to think that there is any error on this article. Google Translate is 99% accurute, despite being awkwardly worded. I also wrote 2002 Bou'in-Zahra earthquake and Lazare Ponticelli to FA status from some foreign-language sources, and no one really complained about them. What's the difference? ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 19:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Telling me that "French reviewers are not going to verify this, because they don't care about the subject matter is a poor argument. Surely there is some French editor that will be able to read this and verify its content. Now, tell me why my oppose is unactionable. Citing a source which neither you or the reviewers can understand fully is equal to not citing a source at all. To tell me that I'm "pretty paranoid" because I'm questioning the reliability and factual accuracy of a candidate to become considered "Wikipedia's best work" is also a poor argument, and does not sway me to reconsider my vote. Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  19:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Google Translate is 99% accurute You've demonstrated the need for the scrutiny of Featured Articles with this FAC. --Moni3 (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) Find one then. It is unactionable since the article has already received translation help (on Leon M'ba) to prove it wasn't wrong. You're paranoid because Google Translite is right most of the time, and I've been using it far longer than when I even heard of Wikipedia. Re Blofeld, I added about the 1964 coup to give an explanation of how Gondjout came into play. Again, my FA arguement still stands. I see no reason at all, unless someone comes up with some prose issues, to not promote this to FA status. Voting without even looking at the article is poor form in itself. ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 20:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * WOTW, you have yet to bring up an argument worth considering. Telling me my participation is "poor form", and stating that I'm paranoid isn't helping your case. Additionally, is there a source that states Google Translator is correct most of the time? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  20:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You participation was not porr form, not reading the article was. Through my long term use of it, my bit of French that I know hasn't conflicted with Google. I do understand Spanish and German a bit better though, and they never conflict either. The gramma may be off, true, but the basic wording: never. I have been redirected to a better site by EJF. For this, however, it did receive professional help on M'ba (which I took most of this article from). ~  one of many editorofthewikis ( talk / contribs / editor review )  ~ 20:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Ed that actually google translator does a pretty good job of translating unlike some of the other terrible systems on the web. The grammar and some phrase translations are far from perfect sometimes terrible, but nearly always, particularly if you have a basic knowledge of the language can work it out accordingly. Google translate is actually far superior to these, I doubt there are any serious errors in his translation but I admit we would look sheepish if a french wikipedian reported it to ANI for errors or somebody made a meal of it in the media. I doubt however, that anybody will. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.