Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul Kelly (musician)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:24, 26 June 2010.

Paul Kelly (musician)

 * Nominator(s): Dan arndt (talk) and shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

We are nominating this for featured article because we believe it meets all the criteria. We are substantial contributors to this article and have worked together on it since August 2008, initially improving it to B-class and then onto Good Article by September. In March 2010 we returned to working on it, first updating its contents and then improving it further. We subjected the article to a peer review and followed up its comments. We also used the Guild of Copy Editors. Either or both of us will respond to the comments in this candidacy, as this is a joint submission for featured article by Dan arndt (talk) and shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose
 * Fabulous effort, hope it gets there in the end, BUT:
 * Key concern: where is the critical evaluation; where are the descriptions of his influence.. Where are the discussions in reliable sources of his albums, their effects on Oz music etc etc? This guy is one of the most important figures in late 20th century Australian popular music. I'm pretty sure a lot has been written about him, and it doesn't generally appear to be here.
 * Possible sources:
 * Craig Mathieson, Playlisted: Everything You Need to Know About Australian Music Right Now
 * On-line |check at GoogleBooks gives three hits but no useful information.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ann Atkinson, Linsay Knight, Margaret McPhee, The Dictionary of Performing Arts in Australia: Opera, dance, music
 * Forster, Robert. Thoughts in the Middle of a Career: Paul Kelly's - Songs from the South. The Monthly, Apr 2009: 62-64.
 * This is excellent—I've used it in the article in a number of places—thanks.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The cited reference for the significant Fricke quote (from Rolling Stone) isn't Rolling Stone - in fact it isn't even a link to the article it says it is (current note 23). Need to locate the original article - it should be a rich vein for this WP piece, not just the source for a quote that everyone else keeps reproducing. Kelly's own webpage has the issue date: 5/8/08.
 * Kelly's webpage does cite a review of Stolen Apples by Fricke from 8 May 2008 but it is not the source of the quote. The quote is already used in 2005, see here and according to another part of Kelly's webpage here it was running around in 1997, possibly with the compilation Songs from the South (first volume). I'm still looking for this important source.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It is from Fricke's liner notes to Songs from the South, I've put in a new ref for it. I haven't found an on-line version of these notes and so there is no external link.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:49, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Susan Horsburgh's SMH piece is cited, but not to bring out the evaluations of other major figures such as Neil Finn.
 * Added a Finn quote to Musical style and song writing section.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Added a Linda Bull quote to show his influence and song writing style.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I found Murray Bramwell's reviews for Adelaide Review online - admitedly not in original form, but could be sourced i htink
 * Used one so far.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Used a second one which covers four Kelly-related releases.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, i'm sure there are a lot more books / journal / magazine features that are about him and his influence. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Added: commentary from Russell Crowe (influences), description from Ed Nimmervoll (evaluation), reviews of various Kelly albums by Allmusic's Mike DeGagne and Brett Hartenbach (evaluation).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added a number of influences and critical evaluations to the article. Some of the evaluations are positive but there are some with slightly negative analyses of Kelly's work. Where I've used quotes/summaries I've tried to be representative of the overall tone of the evaluation. Are these additions now sufficient to cover your concerns?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll come back to the article later - just a quick comment to say that negative as well as positive comments should be included, as long as they reflect the balance of views across the literature as a whole. Might be a few days before I get to do a proper read-through. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

More minor pts:
 * Is there any way to make a short para about Hilary Brown, their marriage, birth of son Declan, and not have it as a single sentence sandwiched in with other stuff?
 * Not a lot of information about Kelly's first marriage to Brown but will see what I can track down to expand this area. Dan arndt (talk) 07:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Has been removed from the Dots section as Brown and his first marriage is mentioned again in his Personal life section.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This is coming along well, but the tinkering with the personal details has created a new problem. The text has this: "Problems with his marriage and drug use disrupted his career, and by late 1984 the marriage had broken up" - only now there is nothing telling us about that marriage because that sentence has been removed. I think your general impulse - to have some of this information in the chronology - wasn't a bad one, but it just hasn't been executed that well. I don't think weeding it all out and just having it at the very end will work with Kelly, because that personal life - particularly his second wife and partner Sian Prior - have also been part of his career. I want to see it worked in there, it just needs to be done better. Not easy i accept, but i encourage you to stick at keeping it included. Let's also see what other editors think as this progresses. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Point taken—I've reverted my removals—I'll reconsider how to expand Brown & Prior's introductions into Kelly's article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tackled both of these. Made a separate paragraph per person. The Brown paragraph is more about their son, Declan.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:56, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * phrase "had no chart success" is used twice close together in the Dots section. Can one of these be changed for variety?
 * Done Adjusted nearby sentences & refs.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Same sort of problem on his personal life: "Prior is Kelly's girlfriend and is a former opera singer" (in the 2000-current section) is just wedged in as we read on about the detail of albums, soundtracks etc. Take it out or footnote it, i think.
 * Has been removed from this section as Prior and his relationship with her is mentioned again in his Personal life section.
 * With both of these, we were trying to include the information in his overall musical chronology.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Near the end of the article is this: "Frawley, a guitarist in Paul Kelly and the Dots, who co-wrote "Look So Fine, Feel So Low" (1987), had died of cancer in May 2009" It needs to lose a comma, but my main concern is that he wasn't (according to earlier text) "a guitarist in Paul Kelly and the Dots" - he was with (the?) Paul Kelly Band, and The Drive-in Motel. Has some info gone missing from the earlier section, or is the later one incorrect? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Frawley was a member of Paul Kelly & the Dots between 1981-82, and subsequently a member of the Paul Kelly Band between 1983-84. Frawley replaced previous guitarist Michael Holmes, who replaced Chris Worral, who replaced original guitarist Chris Malhebe. Frawley was also in Kelly's then wife, Kaarin Fairfax, backing band, The Drive-In Motel, in 1990. Apologies if that is a bit confusing will see if I can't remove the commas and try and tighten it all up a bit more. Dan arndt (talk) 06:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed phrase to more general "a guitarist for Kelly in various groups," otherwise this part reads as if he was only in the Dots. Should there be a wikilink to Bands and accompanying musicians of Paul Kelly since Frawley does not have his own article yet?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Answers own question! Probably not as there's already a wikilink to that article earlier and a whole section titled Bands and accompanying musicians with a direction to that article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment—there are no links to dab pages, but dead external links to http://www.kellyco.com.au/Content.aspx?p=127, http://www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=978, http://www.howlspace.com.au/whoswho/PHPTracks.php?Band_ID=95150, http://www.howlspace.com.au/whoswho/PHPTracks.php?Band_ID=113715, http://www.howlspace.com.au/whoswho/PHPReleaseTracks.php?band=113640 (all four have an "Internal Server Error"; perhaps a temporary problem), http://www.howlspace.com.au/whoswho/PHPTracks.php?Band_ID=113600, http://www.drumperth.com.au/ (title given does not match actual title), http://www.users.bigpond.com/nfspublicity/awards%202000.html, http://music.generationq.net/bm/news/paul-kelly-entire-catalogue-with-emi-021081.shtml, http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22018071-5003425,00.html, http://www.moawards.org.au/winners%201989.htm, http://www.moawards.org.au/winners%201990.htm, http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/programs/literary/pla/yaprize/judges2003.html, http://www.country.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1135, http://www.country.com.au/index.cfm?page_id=1134 . Ucucha 05:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * First two are the original urls for the related archived urls at web.archive.org (Wayback Machine). Should the original urls be removed, leaving only the archived ones?--shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I stuffed up some of these by mixing up archiveurl with url. Hopefully most are better now.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Four urls for the on-line copy of Spencer et al appear to have lapsed—I get the same ISE notice. They were active in March: these urls can be removed if you wish as the citations apply to Spencer's book but I don't have page numbers for these entries: I was relying on the on-line version. I could replace the existing Spencer cites with e.g. Spencer et al, (2007) High Rise Bombers entry. without any external link.shaidar cuebiyar (talk)23:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've made my suggested changes for these Spencer refs. If an on-line ref is a must the relevant information can be covered by Holmgren's Australian Rock Database site. I used Spencer as being nearer the original data (Holmgren cites Spencer as one of his sources for that site).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Checked at Wayback but these are not archived (as yet).
 * users.bigpond.com is the original url for archived file at Wayback.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.drumperth.com.au/ Previously went to the Jeff Jenkins article in Drum Media (Perth) but it seems to have been commandeered by its parent company, Street Press Australia which does not appear to store the older files. A Wayback search has not found anything usable.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:28, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * replaced some lapsed links with archive urls where possible. Second Sian Prior ref is cached by Google but does not provide much extra from first ref so I'll delete it.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed urls from news items with no longer active address.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm checking the other EL problems.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I've covered all of these ELs, either by: fixing url vs archiveurl, removing urls and leaving the text ref or totally removing the offending ref.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks; all external links seem to be working now. Ucucha 18:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Sources comment: Apart from the numerous non-working links that need fixing, can you explain your criteria for listing some of your sources as "General references"? I'm unclear as to why this term is applied to some sources but not others. Brianboulton (talk) 18:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The general refs provided extensive biographical information on Kelly's life (Doyle, Leser, radio transcript) or his professional career & releases (McFarlane, Nimmervoll & Spencer). Some of these also provided support for specific claims in the article. Other sources, most of the specific refs, were not used extensively or only apply to the indicated portions of the article. Are there any that you believe should be switched over? I'm willing to discus these.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There don't seem to be any citations to the radio transcript, so it's not clear how this was used in compiling the article. Otherwise fair enough. I will go ahead with a full sources review now. Brianboulton (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * From memory, we had some citations to the radio transcript in any earlier form but ref clutter was occurring in some places (five or six refs for the one claim) and so we trimmed them back. It looks like the radio transcript, although used in creating the article, does not independently verify any contentious claims.

Further sources comments Brianboulton (talk) 16:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The links in the following references are still broken: 6, 19, 25, 26, 32, 35, 39, 126 and 144
 * The link in Ref 23 does not go to the required page.
 * I'll tackle these in reverse numerical order—seems easier if ref order gets changed in the process.
 * 144: Attfield. As indicated in the note, its a long pdf, but my browser still delivered it without timing out. I'm not sure whether the warning note is sufficient for editors checking the article's sources.
 * 126: Tour08 (paulkelly.com.au) Official website seems to have been cleaned out in his tours section: only two shows are currently listed and no archive. I've changed the content of this ref to a magazine preview of his tour, which announces dates in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland: covers the claim.
 * More to follow, later.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 39: Dragon. Had no problem here.
 * 35: Leser207. This relates back to the general ref on Leser which is directed to a pdf of nine pages. I had no problem in downloading and then opening this pdf.
 * 32: TVMemStarstruck. Had no problem here.
 * 26: SpencerHighRise. No longer has any external link. Am I getting these ref numbers right? Has the order changed from when you made your list?
 * 25: ARDb. Had no problem here.
 * 23: Howl. Goes to Nimmervoll's Howlspace article on Paul Kelly. As an aside: this is the expanded form of his Allmusic biography of Kelly and could replace his Allmusic biog as a General ref.
 * 19: WRecords. Had no problems here.
 * 6: Spirited Men116. Leads to google copy of Doyle's book: limited preview is available. I had no problem getting to p 116 (couldn't view p 115 though).

If these are not the correct refs you wanted fixed you might have to give more information so those may be identified better. Order/numbering was changed recently when I checked the url list from above; and also when I moved the Civics ref to number 1 to cite the quote in the Lead per comment below from Tony1.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, some numbers have changed since I did my checks, but it seems that the problems I encountered were temporary, because I rechecked all the links this morning, and they all worked. The only query I have is with 20 (Bridget Magner) which goes to a "search results" page with no obvious route to the source document. Is it possible to create a direct link? Otherwise, I have no further issues with the sourcing. Brianboulton (talk) 08:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Archiveurl has been changed, hopefully you'll go to a pdf download now.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * 1) Hamiltonstone has made valuable comments above.
 * 2) "He is acknowledged as one of Australia's best singer-songwriters and described as its poet laureate." Even though it's the lead, my teeth are grinding that it might be seen as peacockry in such an exposed position; needs a ref at the very least, but many would be happier to find out this good stuff further down, where the detail can support the claim. Or just let his achievements shine per se. There's no one prescription. And then there's a bit of repetition a few lines later. The last quote in that opening paragraph is good indeed: that will make readers want to continue. I'd source it, though, on the spot.
 * Deleted "He is acknowledged as one of Australia's best singer-songwriters and described as its poet laureate." from Lead, left in main text later where each part is separately reffed. Last sentence in opening paragraph is now reffed there.


 * 1) Deceptive link to "1997"—it's actually a valuable link, and too much like the very next one. I'm wondering whether, at this point, you might pipe the underlying link to 1997 to "ARIA Hall of Fame" instead, to remove the deceptive link. If they really are quite different articles, perhaps one could be linked explicitly later? Unsure.
 * Adjusted links to just 1997 ARIA Awards article in Lead, left general text where both ARIA Awards of 1997 and ARIA Hall of Fame are separately linked.


 * 1) Infobox links: Normally, we don't link "acoustic, folk, musician, singer-songwriter, vocals, guitar, harmonica, unless there's some particular reason. Why is "acoustic" there at all? Maybe there's a reason ...?
 * De-linked all suggested. Acoustic is there as much of his work is electric (especially in groups and early work) but some is performed acoustically including whole albums.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) "including "To Her Door", solely written by Kelly,"—you might be able to make it neater as just "including Kelly's "To Her Door"—the readers will understand it as his alone given your contrastives further into the sentence.
 * Adjusted sentence.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) I really don't think Sydney and Melbourne need to be linked in an overtly Australian article. They're supposed to be international cities—or they think they are. Up to you. Adelaide was repeat-linked, and, well, the states are bunched up with those cities, and linked prominently in the city articl, so I wouldn't double-link. Our readers need you to focus them on link points, as specific as possible, and lots of blue is distracting if it's highly unlikely to be used by readers. It's a sad fact that they rarely click, anyway.
 * De linked Sydney & Melbourne.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Do check that you need the abbreviations (VCASS?). Are they used enough to justify the clutter of spelling out and bracketing? Perhaps ABC is worth it for the recognition factor.
 * Removed VCASS from main text but left in ref: won't affect casual readers there.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Kept ARIA & APRA: they're used a fair bit in this article and in Aus music articles in general. Deleted NCADA, AGSC & CMAA.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The sound-bites are reassuringly old, so are less likely to attract the copyright police, I think. After seeing three I was hoping not to see a fourth. But it's there. Let sleeping dogs lie, but in the future someone might come along and complain that there are too many. It's a fuzzy area of policy.
 * No action required.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The 1985 pic is not of good res, but heck, the owner has given it to us. Nice work.
 * No action required.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "during 1978–1982"—MoS says avoid mixing punctuation with a preposition or time phrase, I think. Consider "from 1978 to 1982", unless those four years were a distinct period in his output or life.
 * I think I got all of these.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read the bottom half, but I'm inclined to support WRT Criterion 1a. Tony  (talk)  07:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Your comments have been addressed.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments - just looking at the article very quickly, the lead seems to be unnecessarily long. It needs to be trimmed down at least by a paragraph. There are/were also some places that didn't follow the Music Manual of Style - I fixed a few, but there may be others. For future reference, use Checklinks to see if any of your external links are dead. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.