Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pavel Bure/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:48, 18 August 2009.

Pavel Bure

 * Nominator(s): Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 23:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Bure is a retired NHL player who spent most of his career with the Vancouver Canucks. Although his legacy with the team is somewhat marred with his infamous trade request, his part in the team's 1994 Stanley Cup run and individual achievements reflect him as one of the most talented and significant players to ever play for the Canucks. I began the process of editing the article in hopes of an approved FAC a little over a month ago and it has since vastly improved in quality. After correcting several issues through two peer reviews (one automated PR and one detailed PR from an admin), I feel that the article is ready for FAC. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 23:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment. Done; thanks. Alt text is present, but needs work, as it contains several details that are not obvious to a non-expert who can see only the pictures. These include "Bure" (most readers don't know what Bure looks like), "Canucks", "alternate captain", "Russian president Vladimir Putin"m and "August 14, 2001". These details can be moved to captions; the alt text should describe only obvious visual appearance. Please see WP:ALT  and WP:ALT  example 3. Eubulides (talk) 01:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In response to the request in Wikipedia talk:Alternative text for images . Let's try to do it one step at a time. For the first step, please remove all proper names from the alt text. (This is because typical readers do not know what any of those people look like.) That is, reword the alt text so that it doesn't contain any proper names, but instead briefly describes the visual appearance of the important people or objects in the image. Don't go to a lot of work: the alt text is already too long, and you'll probably want to shorten it as you go. Just briefly write the gist of the visual appearance of the image. (For example, there's no need to mention the photographer.) I suggest just doing one image first, say File:Vladimir Putin in the United States 13-16 November 2001-20.jpg, and then noting that here; I'll review it then. Eubulides (talk) 03:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've tried changing up all three images; hopefully it looks better. However, I don't think I'm using the proper alt text code for the image in the medal table because it won't show up in the alt text tool.   Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, much better. I tweaked it a bit more, fixing the parameter-name spelling problem you had with the template. Eubulides (talk) 01:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Further notes on images: Only two images? I'm surprised; there should be a lot more for an article of this size. Nevertheless, both of those images are fine. NW ( Talk ) 04:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've tried extensively to have images on flickr to be freed up under a creative commons license, but no flickr users were willing, unfortuantely. I'm not aware any other places to look.  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I just feel ridiculous having gone to Wikimedia Commons and finding a Pavel Bure category. I added one more image, because the others available at Commons are more or less different shots of the same situations already used in the article.  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 02:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment – Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly does "Banks 1999" refer to? Is there a bibliography somewhere that I am just not seeing? NW ( Talk ) 04:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Banks 1999 refers to citation number 5, where the book's info is fully cited. I was not sure how to properly cite the book, as it was used quite frequently.  Do you have any suggestions?  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Tell me what you think: . Feel free to revert if you dislike it. NW ( Talk ) 23:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Done lol.  I actually had something similar originally but decided against it.  It's definitely a better setup, thanks.  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 23:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment on writing alt captions.
 * The present caption to the lead image says: An ice hockey player in his late twenties wears a jersey with red, blue and silver trim and a logo composed of a front part of a whale breaking out of a stylized "C". His jersey features a patch of a black letter "A" with red trim on the top right side, a patch of a stylized maple leaf with two hockey sticks on the top left side and the number 10 in black with red trim on his upper right arm. He also wears a white helmet and black hockey pants and holds a black and yellow hockey stick diagonally across his torso.
 * Incredibly tedious! So what can go? Do we need to know its the "front part" of a whale? Do we need to know every tiny detail of the uniform, down to the trim around the letter A? The answer is no. The minute description of what he is wearing has taken over completely from a description of the real subject matter.
 * What I am about to say here is something which nit-picking editors might call "interpretation". But this is what your non-seeing reader needs to know about.
 * This is a picture of a young man who is in the middle of a game. His face looks sweaty, and has an expression of deep concentration. This is what the picture is about. Amandajm (talk) 12:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This alt text process seems to be hareing off in the wrong direction to me. Unfortunately a picture usually is worth 1,000 words, and we can't realistically add the 1,000 words. Johnbod (talk) 21:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've revised the alt text a little bit, but am unsure exactly how I can address your concerns. If you have any ideas, please feel free to have a shot at it.  Alt text is a little bit of a novel idea for me.  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 02:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Amandajm's point about the alt text being tedious are well taken; the alt text was overdone. I reworded along the lines Amandajm suggested. I left off the "sweaty" bit (I can't see the sweat) and I left off the "game" bit (I see no evidence that the photo was taken while a game was in progress), and I feel that some info about his uniform is appropriate, so that change results in the alt text "An ice hockey player on the ice with spectators in the background. He is in his late twenties and has an expression of deep concentration. He wears a white jersey with a big black C, and holds a hockey stick diagonally across his torso." Hope this addresses the concerns, and further improvements are welcome. Eubulides (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Please spell out abbreviations in the notes. Yes, they are linked, but you don't want your readers to leave your article, they might never return
 * Done, with the exception of organizations that don't go by the 'spelled out' version of their name anymore. (ie. ESPN is the official name, having previously dropped the full "Entertainment and Sports Programming Network" name) Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Current ref 79 ("Burke says Wild...) is lacking a publisher.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes http://www.encyberpedia.com/cybure.htm a reliable source?
 * Working on finding a different source. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes http://www.funreports.com/fun/10-02-2005/1175-Pavel_Bure_Anna_Kournikova-0 a reliable source?
 * Replaced with a source from Kommersant. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 00:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments – I found the beginning part to be well-written, but ran into some problems later on:
 * Vancouver Canucks: Little redundancy here: "he was avaliable to be drafted in the first three rounds of the draft". Normally I'd suggest replacing the first one with "selected", but this is used later in the sentence, so "chosen" might be a good substitute.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "However, the Canucks head scout at the time, Mike Penny". Apostrophe at the end of Canucks.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "The Canucks met further resistance from the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation the following year in 1991, calling for Bure's contract with the Central Red Army to be upheld before he signed with an NHL club." Reads like the Canucks were the ones making the call, not the SIHF. I'm sure this isn't the intention, and a simple tweak should be enough to fix it.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * On the picky side, certain dollar amounts (typically $1 million or more), such as $2.7 million, require non-breaking spaces.
 * I could not find you were referring to here. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Bure's Canucks debut in 1992 was delayed a month into the season." Is it supposed to be "delayed until a month into the season."?
 * Done. I hope "delayed by a month into the season" is good enough. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "When it came time to voting the players". "vote for", perhaps? Doesn't seem like it works grammatically now.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Another glaring redundancy: "representing the Clarence Campbell Conference as the lone Canucks representative."
 * Done. Replaced "representing" with "was named to" Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Nicklas Lindstrom doesn't have diacritic marks, but Patrik Sundstrom does. Might want to quickly check for consistency in this regard.
 * Added diacrtic. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "with one of the major factors being the Canucks demands for the contract to be in Canadian dollars on account of the American exchange rate." Anytime a noun like "with" and an -ing like "being" are combined, it often leads to an awkward sentence. This is the best guide I've found to combat this problem.
 * Done. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to come back and read more later, but make no guarantees due to how many reviews I conduct. Also consider reading WP:MOSNUM, which has guidelines on when to use figures and when to spell numbers out. It's confusing even to many reviewers (like me), but it's important to have a basic understanding when writing articles with many numbers, like sports statistics.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 15:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and addressed the MOSNUM issues. As a general rule, numbers under 10 are written as words and the rest are written numerically. Of course, being the MOS, it's a bit more complicated than that at times! Dabomb87 (talk) 20:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks so much. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 23:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "However, there were unresolved contract issues as Bure's agent Ron Salcer...". Considering that the agent was identified in the previous paragraph, the three words before Salcer should be removed.
 * "He spent the season with a roatation of linemates". Typo.
 * "He had originally requested the number when he first joined the Canucks, but was not permitted by head coach Pat Quinn". Permitted to wear the number, I assume?
 * New York Rangers: "before suffering a knee-on-knee collision with Buffalo Sabres forward Curtis Brown in game on December 6, 2002." Should perhaps be "in a game"?
 * In addition, I'd like to make a pass at copy-editing the rest at some point in the next couple of days.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 16:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing those out. I've gone and fixed them. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 10:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Did some light cleanup work throughout, along with my own source spot-check. Found a few more concerns that I wanted to note:
 * Didn't like the flow of this sentence, but am unsure of the best fix: "many cases of extortion began surfacing that the Russian mafia was targeting the players' families still living in Russia."
 * Found one sentence that was quite close to the source. Reference 7: "If Pavel did not show marked improvement in two months, he would withdraw him from the program." Article: "...if he did not show significant improvement within two months, he would withdraw him from the hockey school."
 * The same source says nothing about Bure's coach winning an award, and only says he was the first Canucks player to win an award.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 17:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment I spot checked some of the sources, and found one issue:
 * "His mark for most goals by a rookie stood for 18 years before New York Rangers prospect Alexei Cherepanov broke the record by one goal in 2006–07." There was nothing in the provided source saying that the record lasted 18 years. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the record was set in 1989 and Cherepanov broke it in 2007, thus 18 years. Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I read through the article pretty carefully, but must have missed that bit. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.