Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pedro Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:GrahamColm 10:01, 15 March 2014 (UTC).

Pedro Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil

 * Nominator(s): Lecen (talk), &bull; Astynax talk and  Alex  (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

This article was nominated a few months ago. Unfortunately, it had serious flaws in it, including wrong information. It was greatly improved and now can be regarded among the best biographies of Brazilian royals. Lecen (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment leaning support, very well done. A few comments:
 * Lede
 * "unconvinced that she could ever be accepted as monarch among the ruling circles " hm, maybe delete "ever" as not needed, and change "among" to "by". In fact, having read the article and seeing that the justifying sentence in the body is "he had little confidence that a woman could rule Brazil in the male-dominated social climate of the time", I would suggest changing the lede to "unconvinced that she, as a woman, could ever be accepted as monarch".
 * Birth
 * "Eugênio" the whatever it is mark above the "e" differs from the marking in the name as rendered in the infobox.
 * "which according to a contemporary was an event " What was? Was the receipt of congratulations a formal ceremony?  I'd make this clearer.
 * "elaborate ceremony was observed at court" If this is said event, I think this should be merged into the phrasing referenced just above.
 * I would precede the second paragraph with "Upon Pedro Afonso's birth" or something similar.
 * I would move Porto Alegre's comment to the next paragraph, so the reader knows about the succession prior to reading it.
 * The location of the baptism should possibly be mentioned. I'm also getting the impression that the baptism took place before crowds, though I imagine this was not the case. At least ones seeking entertainment.
 * Death
 * Can anything be said about where the family spent its time in the non-summer? I assume Rio, but the reader should not have to assume. And about who cared for the child, whether mother/other relatives/nursemaids?
 * I think Dom Afonso should get a mention very early in the body of this article. I don't know much about Brazilian history, but plainly some of the jubilation about the birth of Pedro Afonso was that it relieved the uncertainty (for the moment) caused by the lack of a male heir. Thus, although it is mentioned in the lede, it should be mentioned early in the body.
 * That's about it. Nice work.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply: Lecen and I have implemented most of your suggestions. Both parents traveled extensively to fulfill their obligations, though I don't know if the children accompanied them as infants. There is a statement in Barman that the emperor wrote to Cristina Teresa while he was away on those occasions when she stayed behind "looking after the children", but I do not know whether that was always the case, and there would have also been an aia/governess assigned to Pedro Afonso. Perhaps Lecen recalls more details, if there is anything concrete in regard to Pedro Afonso's supervision. &bull; Astynax talk 05:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, Wehwalt. Thank you very much for taking the time to review the article. The Imperial family had dozens of servants, divided in hierarchy, from slaves to nobles. The problem is that there is nothing available regarding Afonso nor his brother Pedro. I could you information available regarding their sister Isabel, but that would be guessing and I don't think it would be a good idea. The imperial family lived in Rio de Janeiro (city) in the Palace of São Cristóvão. During summer they stayed in Santa Cruz farm and later in their summer residence in Petrópolis. I do plan to write about all that in more detailed articles, perhaps in Imperial Family of Brazil. I don't know. There is a lot to do about this period of Brazilian history on Wikipedia. --Lecen (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support on prose and comprehensiveness. I suppose you could say in the article more or less what you've told me, that there's no information on Afonso but this is how Isabel was cared for, but that's editor's discretion in my view.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Image review
 * Not required, but is it possible to provide a translation of the image description where it's currently Portuguese-only?
 * File:Brasao-Brigantina.png: this and both of its listed sources claim CC-own work licenses - what is the copyright status of the original coat of arms, and what source(s) was used for the creation of these images? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I added the translations, but couldn't find "File:Brasao-Brigantina.png" in the article. Maybe you made a mistake about the name? --Lecen (talk) 03:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Lecen, Brasao-Brigantina.png is part of the House of Braganza template at the bottom of the article. The same template is used in the other articles about Brazilian royals also, but I cannot recall whether it was already looked at during other reviews. &bull; Astynax talk 03:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I know nothing of it. I didn't make the template nor added it to the article. If there is any problem with the picture I believe someone should mention that in the template talk page. --Lecen (talk) 13:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Support and comments from Cliftonian
 * Looks very well done from first glance. Will note thoughts as I go
 * Lead


 * Why not say when the elder brother, Dom Afonso, died? (three years earlier)
 * The lead seems to just kind of tail off without a proper conclusion. "the Emperor started to believe that the imperial line was destined to end with his own death"—Make clearer that it actually did.
 * Infancy and early death


 * "born at 08:00"—exactly, or roughly?
 * Perhaps briefly say where Petrópolis is and make clearer that this is where the Santa Cruz Estate was.
 * ""who disliked any change that threatened the established ways and interests"—who is this quoted from?
 * "were both struck by fever"—"both" can be removed without affecting the meaning
 * Legacy

Summary: Very well done indeed; excellently written, well-structured and thoroughly deserving of the FA star. I will leave the comments above (which are really mostly nitpicks), but I still feel very comfortable supporting this for promotion. Well done! A really fine piece of work. —Cliftonian (talk) 11:34, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, it is not made totally clear that the imperial system indeed did not survive after Pedro II's death. I would recommend fixing this.
 * Cliftonian, I made a few of the changes you suggested. Petrópolis and Santa Cruz Estate are both located in the state of Rio de Janeiro (not to be confused by the city of Rio de Janeiro, its capital), but they are not in the same place. Santa Cruz is now part of the city of Rio de Janeiro (it wasn't in 1850) and Petrópolis is around 40 minutes from Rio (today; but a few days by horse in 1850). The quote is from historian Roderick J. Barman and it's sourced. The hours given to births and deaths are always "5:00", "14:30", and not "15:12" or "03:46". Does it means that he was born around 08:00? I don't know. I preferred to say it as the source said. Lastly, I can't add further info in the lead about the downfall of the monarchy because that's not discussed in the main text. The monarchy ended in 1889 (before Pedro II's death, not after). I don't think it's a good idea to discuss the end of the monarchy in an article about a child that died in 1850, 30 years earlier. Besides, there are plenty of good articles about its end: Pedro II of Brazil, Empire of Brazil and Decline and fall of Pedro II of Brazil. Thank you very much for your review. I really appreciate. --Lecen (talk) 14:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fine—I'm sorry I am so ignorant of Brazilian history. Thank you for the education and well done again. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Eric   Corbett 
 * "Pedro II received official congratulations at a levee held later in the day following the birth ...". I can't make sense of that at all. Was the levee held the day after the birth (in which case what does "later" mean), or was it held on the same day as the birth?


 * "In his eyes, the deaths of his only sons seemed to presage the end of the imperial system." It doesn't make sense to talk of "only sons" in the plural.

I haven't finished reading yet, so I may have more to add later. Eric  Corbett  17:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply: Thanks for taking a look. I have reworded the sentence on the levee to make it clearer. I have also removed the word "only" from "his only sons". In the latter case, "only sons" was used to indicate that he had no other sons except the two who had died. His despair over the viability of the imperial system was predicated on the lack of any surviving male issue. It is a minor point which is made elsewhere, however. &bull; Astynax talk 18:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "... a band shell that could hold more than a hundred musicians was raised for the festivities". What's a band shell?


 * "Pedro Afonso was buried in the mausoleum of the Convento de Santo Antônio (Convent of Saint Anthony) in Rio de Janeiro. The interment was originally supposed to be temporary, but a mausoleum was never built." I don't quite follow that. And why "originally"?


 * "... regarding the succession of the empire ...". Empire was capitalised earlier in the article. I don't think it should have been, but we need to be consistent.

That's it from me. Eric  Corbett  20:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply: Thanks for your further input. A band shell is an acoustical stage or balcony used to hold a band or small orchestra for performances and to provide music for balls/dances. I've wikilinked it to the brief article and also changed the capitalization of Empire to be consistent. I assume that Pedro Afonso was to be reburied in a yet to be constructed imperial mausoleum upon the death of his parents. The first Emperor had been buried in Portugal, and Pedro II died in exile and was also initially buried in Portugal, so no imperial crypt was constructed during the Empire. I cannot point to a source for that conclusion, however, and perhaps Lecen can say whether the sources say anything more as to why the burial was regarded as impermanent. &bull; Astynax talk 10:02, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a small thing anyway, so I'm happy to add my support for this article's promotion. Eric   Corbett  12:18, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Support. Eric   Corbett  12:18, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 10:02, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.