Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Peter Drummond (RAF officer)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 15:52, 9 July 2018.

Peter Drummond (RAF officer)

 * Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 23:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Roy Drummond (nicknamed from youth, and later officially, "Peter") was a World War I fighter ace and one of the highest-ranking Australians to serve in the Royal Air Force. Having created this ten years ago, my memory's a little hazy, but I think I became interested in him because for a while it looked like he might be the solution to the long-running conflict between George Jones and William Bostock over command of the Royal Australian Air Force in World War II. It wasn't to be, though -- the Jones–Bostock feud continued to simmer and Drummond ended up losing his life in a plane crash over the Azores in 1945. This was GA for yonks but I recently expanded it and put it through MilHist A-Class Review, and I think it should satisfy the FA criteria as well. Tks in advance for your comments. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Support by Chetsford
What a fantastic article; comprehensive, well-written, thoroughly referenced, and interesting. As an aside, I was surprised to learn that 5'7" was a disqualifying height for WWI era infantry. I hope I don't get too much flack for giving a drive-by support without suggestions for improvement, however, despite having read the article twice I'm really struggling to find anything meaningful to say. Though, having just been promoted to A-Class, perhaps that's not unexpected. Chetsford (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks Chetsford. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Nick-D
Even by your high standards Ian, this is an excellent article. I have the following comments: Nick-D (talk) 10:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * " He was twice offered command of the RAAF during the war but did not take up the position on either occasion." - this implies that he turned down the position, when it's later stated that the main reason was that the RAF was unwilling to release him for it (though on the first occasion it seems he didn't want it)
 * Actually I couched it the way I did because I felt it was a bit more ambiguous than saying he turned it down twice -- did you have particular wording in mind?
 * "He was twice offered command of the RAAF during the war but the RAF was unwilling to release him to take up the position" perhaps? Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * "lost in a plane crash at sea" - suggest tweaking to "killed in a plane crash at sea" or similar to avoid the euphemism
 * Again I chose the wording deliberately, not to be euphemistic but because AFAIK neither the plane nor his body was ever recovered so "lost" was the better term. If you feel strongly about I'm happy to change and see if anyone else has an issue with it.
 * I think that historians generally discourage the use of the term. Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do we know how he gained his nickname?
 * I wish!
 * "Drummond was evacuated later that year, suffering from dysentery." - I'd suggest noting that he was evacuated to England (which suggests he was very sick, and also helps to explain why and how he was able to join the RFC)
 * Will do.
 * "Drummond himself believed that the situation would be counteracted by attrition from the upcoming invasion of Europe" - the source takes a slightly different approach, stating that "By May 1944 he thought that only high casualty rates in the planned invasion of Europe would take up the over-supply." which I read to mean that he also recognised that there was an oversupply which would only be corrected if casualties were high, not that he expected this.
 * Heh, perhaps I inadvertently implied that he expected the situation in my quest to avoid closely paraphrasing the source, so happy to tweak -- can you suggest different wording?
 * Drummond himself believed that the situation would only be counteracted if the upcoming invasion of Europe led to heavy casualties" perhaps? Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks as always for reviewing Nick. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Support My comments are now addressed. Great work with this article Ian. Nick-D (talk) 11:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks again Nick. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)

Support by Wehwalt
Support Very nicely written. Only a couple of things.
 * "Drummond was awarded the Military Cross for "conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty" on 20 April 1917, when he and Lieutenant Adrian Cole engaged and drove off six enemy aircraft that were attempting to bomb Allied cavalry;" This makes it sound the award took place the date of the action.
 * Yes, I'd hoped that finishing the sentence with the award was promulgated in the London Gazette on 16 August I would nullify any confusion... Just a thought, if I said for his "conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty" does it make it any better? If not I'm open to suggestions...!
 * "Empire Air Training Scheme" this is piped twice in consecutive paragraphs--to different articles!
 * Well spotted -- that would've fooled the duplink checker nicely! The second link is the more appropriate one, will amend.

--Wehwalt (talk) 19:05, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks for taking a look, Wehwalt. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Comments from JennyOz
Hi Ian, just a few possible tweaks... (I've got L plates on re gazettals) Notes and Refs Thanks for all your input to this article over so many years! JennyOz (talk) 02:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * the 2nd Stationary Hospital - add location WA?
 * I don't think my source for that statement gives a location, unless I missed something...
 * promoted to lieutenant on 1 May 1917 - temp?
 * Yes -- tks.
 * he and observer/gunner John Knowles - seems to be Frederick John Knowles
 * I'm sure you're right but in fact the observer's name isn't mentioned in the sources I've used, or have available -- looking into the article's history it was added by another editor without a citation, apologies for missing it.
 * Garjak Nuer tribesmen - add adb ref as Nuers not mentioned ref 28
 * Tks!
 * Nuer tribesmen - wlink Nuer people?
 * Yes, I guess so.
 * Air Force Headquarters, Melbourne - wlink Air Board (Australia)?
 * While the two terms do seem to have often been used interchangeably, I think they were distinct if closely connected entities, and I'd prefer keep them separate.
 * RAF Middle East Command in Cairo - hmm why that article say not established til 1939?
 * Will have to check on that.
 * My fault, although I'll plead extenuating circumstances... The link should be to RAF Middle East Command, but that article didn't exist when I created Drummond's article, so I'd linked to the next best thing at the time (technically RAF Middle East Command wasn't formed until 1941, but RAF Middle East had existed since WWI, and that's what Drummond joined in 1937). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * administering the Empire Air Training Scheme / marking the closure of the Empire Air Training Scheme - two close blue links but diff targets, change second one to Plan?
 * Yes, Wehwalt noticed it too -- fixed.
 * St Martins-in-the-Fields - singular Martin
 * Tks.
 * memorial service - add an online ref too?
 * Fair enough.
 * I chose a different newspaper as I think the one in this link got the date wrong. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Australian Dictionary of Biography credited Tedder and Drummond - present tense credits?
 * Ditto.
 * Order of the Bath on 23 September 1941 - date Gazette 23 but St James's Palace date is 24, so which is actual date of order?
 * My understanding would be the date immediately beneath which the honour appears, which is indeed 24 Sep, so will change date in main body.
 * 18 - page not found, RAF site being redeveloped, can't find any mention squadron 111, 145
 * They would do that, wouldn't they? I may have to use archived links...
 * Glad you could find archived but now that I can read it, I'm confused. He is now in Squadron 145 but ref 18 is for Squadron 111. Wayback doesn't seem to have any captures for 145? I know from this that plane was used by twenty-four squadrons and can see specifically on here that both 111 and 145 used that aircraft, so I know it's correct but... Sorry to have to ask. JennyOz (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Mmm, don't know why we had 111 Sqn there -- I found the 145 Sqn link, it was in a different area of the archived site to 111 Sqn. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * 40, 58, 59 - need supps in refs
 * Okay.
 * 67 - needs supp and page 4689?
 * Will check.
 * Done -- tks! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Odgers, Air War Against Japan, pp. 15–17] - stray bracket
 * Newton, Dennis (1996). Australian Air Aces. Fyshwyck - Fyshwick
 * Will do, tks for picking up those two.
 * Thank you for your thorough check, Jenny -- will update the article in the next day or so. Cheer, Ian Rose (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think I've addressed everything now, Jenny. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:35, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Support - All online refs are working and verify content. Thanks very much Ian, JennyOz (talk) 02:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Sources review
I can't see anything that requires attention – everything is in good order and of the appropriate quality and reliability. I'd merely make the mild suggestion that, for the sake of tidiness, the isbns are standardised into modern 13-digit format. Brianboulton (talk) 16:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Brian, will take care of the ISBNs. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Image review
Hi Nikki, I haven't heard anything back from AWM, perhaps I should look at the UK tag now -- pls let me know your thoughts. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:47, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * File:UK3125Drummond.jpg: Orde was a British artist, so why would this be AustraliaGov? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:21, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Tks for checking Nikki -- naturally I'm going by the Australian War Memorial's tag, are you saying that even if the Australian Government / AWM commissioned or otherwise acquired it the licensing would be an issue? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * If they commissioned it, no - the issue would be "otherwise acquired". The AWM site only says PD, not specifically why, and that matters when deciding US status, for example. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I can ask them, although I'll be pleasantly surprised if they know more than is stated on the image file. What would you suggest if I get no joy, as I'd like to use the image if possible -- I'm not aware of any decent photos from the second half of the war, and the unfinished nature of this sketch seemed kind of appropriate given the circumstances of his death. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:33, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I suspect, unless there is information available about commissioning, we'd be looking at a UK tag instead. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It's feasible that the UK War Artists' Advisory Committee purchased the final painting, and the Australian official war art scheme purchased the sketch (as is implied in the AWM database entry). Nick-D (talk) 06:26, 24 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed - while as Nick mentions it's feasible that AustraliaGov might apply, without confirmation on that I would go with PD-UKGov. Fortunately that also has the worldwide expiry proviso. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay that's done. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:13, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Comment by SchroCat

 * Support. Nicely done and a pleasure to read. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Belated thanks Gavin. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:47, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  15:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.