Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Portsmouth War Memorial/archive1

Portsmouth War Memorial

 * Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Fresh from my success with the Royal Artillery Memorial, I bring you another war memorial featuring the realism of Charles Sargeant Jagger. This one was written almost on a whim after I visited Portsmouth in the summer. I found the dedication on it moving, and although I knew of it in passing, I was surprised that such an impressive memorial had no article at all. So here is the result of my research! It's had a very helpful A-class review at MilHist and I believe it's of the same standard as my previous nominations, but of course I welcome any feedback! Thanks you, HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Image review—pass
Per ACR (t &#183; c)  buidhe  02:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by PM
Great to see you pumping out memorial articles again, Harry. This is in fine shape, and I only have a few comments: That's me done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:26, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * should it be "and decorated to on the sides"?
 * Sure, why not.
 * comma after Strathearn
 * Now moot; I omitted the title in the lead.
 * Body
 * suggest "Portsmouth is was and remains"
 * Done.
 * suggest "the Battle of Jutland in 1916,"
 * Done.
 * move the last sentence of the first para of the Background section to immediately after "naval base"
 * in general, the structure of the first two paras of the Background section need work, they jump around quite a bit, suggest putting the information in rough chronological order then the para on Jagger
 * I've re-worked the section into themes (broadly: navy, army, Jagger).
 * That's great. Suggest splitting the first para after "killed in the war". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Tyvm. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 11:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * say when the Treaty of Versailles was signed
 * Done.
 * suggest "It consists of a semicircular sunken recess, known as an exedra,"
 * Done.
 * can anything be said about the design/elements of the WWII memorial monument?
 * The sources only mention it in passing (I did check a book about WWII memorials but no luck). I suspect if it wasn't right next to the WWI memorial it wouldn't even get a mention. I've added a brief description but there's next to nothing in any of the independent sources.
 * be consistent about counties for locations in the Bibliography
 * I've only included them for tiny out-of-the-way places like Kirstead but they can go if they're a problem. Personally I don't think locations are of much value for modern books but maybe that's just me.
 * Will be back tomorrow to get to the rest. :) HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 20:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * One minor suggestion, but nothing to hold up support. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Source review
Spotchecks not done.


 * "Portsmouth was a major port in the early 20th century" - source?
 * This has been reworked since but it's sourced in the body.
 * Corke: as far as I'm aware, Shire only started publishing out of Oxford after 2007 - can you double-check the location?
 * Corrected.
 * FN1: Historic England should be in publisher not author
 * These citations are done through a template (NHLE). I don't control its output, though it's worth noting that it's used in dozens of featured articles (probably every FA on any important building or structure in England, including my 18 previous war memorial FAs).
 * Fn27: date is incorrect. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Typo, I think. Corrected.

Thanks for your comments. I think I've addressed everything. Apologies for the delay. I'll respond to any follow-up as quick as I can but I might be incognito for a few days at a time. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 19:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusal from coordinator role to look at this.


 * "The First World War memorial is a grade II* listed building." Not for actioning - does that mean that the WW2 parts aren't?
 * Yes indeed. They're separate structures and the WWII memorial is too new to be listed (besides the focus being on WWI in recent years.
 * "unprecedented casualties" - is that the scholarly consensus?
 * Yes. It's not in doubt that nothing on that scale had ever been seen before, which is part of the reason for the wave of memorials.
 * "In 1914, 15,000 people were employed in the naval dockyard, a number which had more than doubled since the turn of the century as a result of the Anglo-German naval arms race." This is chronologically in the wrong place. It would work better at the end of the previous paragraph.
 * Re-ordered.
 * "he largely established his artistic reputation on his designs for war memorials." Would "on" work better as 'with'?
 * No strong feelings, so done.
 * "To mark the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, which officially ended hostilities in June 1919, the Royal Navy fired a 101-gun salute off the Portsmouth coast." Again this seems randomly located. It is the second sentence in the paragraph, which ends in December 1918.
 * It didn't feel random to me. It contributes to setting the scene immediately post-war and the mood in which led to the memorial.
 * Let me phrase it another way. Is there any reason why the last sentence of that paragraph couldn't be moved to immediately after the first? And so just before the 101 gun sentence? And if not, why? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You mean like this? HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 22:31, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Just so. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * "Geoff Archer, described the memorial as ... though described Jagger's flanking statues". Optional: Is it possible to avoid "described" twice in one sentence?
 * I considered this when I wrote it. I've changed it but I don't love the new version either.

And that is all. Fine work as usual. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gog! <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 21:59, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Eddie891
I think that's everything from me, really nice overall, not very much-- only minor suggestions. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * you never provide a cite for "City of Portsmouth War Memorial" as the official title as the official name, although that's clearly what it is
 * Done.
 * ditto for "Guildhall Square War Memorial" as an alternate name-- in fact, Guildhall Square War Memorial is only mentioned once in the whole article
 * Done.
 * "Around 6,000 Portsmouth residents were killed in the war." maybe add the cities total population? 6,000 out of a 20,000 pop. would be an incredible amount, 6,000 out of 60 million not quite so much &mdash; this is in part because you mention "significant losses in the First World War." in the lede
 * Added some stats from the 1911 census. The percentage looks to be in line with or slightly above the UK average, though that appears to include colonies.
 * a date for the wwI declaration of war would be beneficial-- also, which declaration?
 * Date added along with a link to British entry into World War I.
 * "Local estimates are that in " what is a local estimate?
 * An estimate by local people? Rephrased.
 * " Several local churches proceeded with their own commemorations and each " suggest splitting at 'and' I don't see the connection here
 * Split later on to avoid jarring prose.
 * Odd to me that we get background of Jagger but not Gibson & Gordon, is there anything worth saying about them?
 * I agree but there's ... basically nothing to say. They appear to have made their careers by winning competitions rather than standing on their reputations.
 * Thanks very much. <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 16:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * LGTM. Support. Thanks for your contributions-- Eddie891 Talk Work 16:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia (Support)
I'll review (tomorrow?) so you have a non-Milhist reviewer. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC) Some of these are nitpicks, but some significant; leaning support. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Commons link in the wrong place: Manual of Style/Layout
 * I'm aware of this but, frankly, it looks awful floating next to the references and it bunches up the text there. Is there a reason to put it in the references section (it's clearly not a reference) other than "the MoS says so"?
 * Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? I think the other way looks odd :)  But I am not fussed about this at all, so please put it wherever you please.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * War Memorials Online looks like a Wiki ??? (I see you have double-cited there ... what comes from them?)
 * The condition reports are public submissions but the rest isn't. It contains a brief description of nigh every war memorial in the UK and it's cited by Historic England (among others). It's used for the brief description of the WWII memorial.
 * No prob, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder about most of the uses of the word also as redundant; please review (see User:Tony1 exercises).
 * Culled two uses. Two remain, which could be replaced with another word but not eliminated.
 * Ditto for total ... Around 6,000 Portsmouth residents were killed in the war, out of a total population of around 200,000
 * Gone.
 * Not sure if "sunken" is redundant to "recess" ... semi-circular sunken recess ... a recess is sunken, no ?
 * Hmm. A recess can be set into something (eg a wall) and not necessarily sunk below ground level. Not sure on this one. Happy to be corrected.
 * No need, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * On which are panels is awkward ... what about ... The names of the dead are listed on a screen of bronze panels in a semi-circular recess (exedra) ... or ... The memorial consists of a semi-circular recess (exedra) with the names of the dead listed on bronze panels on a screen.
 * Re-worded
 * No casualty number for this ? The first local casualties of the war came from the sinking of the HMS Amphion by a German mine within hours of Britain's entry into the war in August 1914.
 * Difficult. Although the ship was Portsmouth-based, not all the crew would have been Portsmouth natives.
 * Don't use "the" in this construct ... sinking of the HMS Amphion by a German mine ... HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship, we can't say "the her"
 * Done.
 * with soldiers stationed there both for the defence of the south coast and en route to other stations in the British Empire. ... cumbersome ... if you are en route to station are you stationed?
 * Addressed. But if you can think of a better synonym for "station", please let me know.
 * See User:Tony1 exercises ... with a 20-foot high screen wall is missing a hyphen ... it should be 20-foot-high screen wall, but this becomes convoluted with the convert. So, re-cast the sentence ... It consists of a semicircular recess, known as an exedra, with a separate precinct created by a screen wall that is 20 ft high ... or something to that effect ... then "high" is not part of the modifier of the noun wall.
 * You're right, this is difficult to do with the convert. Recast.
 * This has a problem (dangling modifier or something grammatically off is going on): As well as the cenotaph, funds raised by the war memorial committee were donated to the Royal Portsmouth Hospital.
 * Hmm. The meaning is clear, but you might be right. Re-phrased.
 * All addressed I believe. Apologies for the delay. <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 22:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * All good, Support, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)