Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ram Narayan/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:07, 16 March 2010.

Ram Narayan

 * Nominator(s): Hekerui (talk) 14:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi. If it's night where you are, check out the video in the article to get an idea what Narayan does. If not, please read on anyway. The article had a first nomination in October last year and I submit it for your consideration. Thank you. Hekerui (talk) 14:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments. No dab links, no dead external links, alt text present and good. Ucucha 15:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Image review:
 * File:Ram Narayan 2.jpg is credited to Nimbus Records Limited but the OTRS ticket comes from someone who does not appear to be connected with that organization.
 * No proof File:Ram Narayan - Shiraz Arts Festival.ogg is public domain in the USA
 * Others seem fine. Stifle (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review.
 * Quoting you from the previous discussion: "Because the USA has no copyright treaty with Iran, anything published there doesn't attract a US copyright. It's WMF policy to respect Iranian copyrights regardless, but as long as something was published in 1978 or earlier it's PD in Iran and that's enough for us. File:Ram Narayan - Shiraz Arts Festival.ogg is therefore valid."
 * Nimbus Records is owned by Wyastone Estate Limited (see http://www.wyastone.co.uk/), this is why the name is used. The office manager searched out this picture to which the company owned the copyright and it was released using the declaration of consent for all enquiries listed at Commons:OTRS.
 * Hekerui (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Symbol information vote.svg OTRS information: The e-mail from ticket #2009062210019091 does indeed come from an Office Manager of the Wyastone Estate Limited who is an owner of Nimbus Records. See their webiste or the Nimbus Records Wikipedia article for more information. Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 19:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I have no further issues with the images. Stifle (talk) 09:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: I replaced File:Ram Narayan - Shiraz Arts Festival.ogg with the higher quality duplicate File:Ram Narayan at the Shiraz Arts Festival.ogg. Hekerui (talk) 13:59, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Query to Hekerui regarding sources. I just read the jacket cover spiel for Qureshi at Google Books. It says in part "Master Musicians of India is the first book to present the stories of these performers in their own words." Can you please clarify whether the chapter in Qureshi that you use is written by Qureshi, or is actually a transcription / chapter / similar of Ram Narayan himself? Thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking this out. The Qureshi book has a longish introduction by her about the history of sarangi playing, and then includes interviews that are introduced with biographies written by Qureshi about the subjects. The biographies by Qureshi about Narayan and his daughter were the most useful texts and the cites pp. 107-110 and pp. 126-127 are from them. The citation of page 17 refers to the longer intro where she describes the work of musicians in the film industry and takes Narayan as an example for Bombay. The interview with Narayan is translated from Urdu and annotated, and Aruna's was made in English, but both are not all that useful. I chose only a few things from either, and those I believe comply with WP:PRIMARY in that they need no analysis and merely add to the article but are not necessary for understanding: Narayan saying he played in Humdard, Milan, Gunga Jumna, Adalat (p. 119 – because of the anonymity issue it's remarkable that we get to know some, the Indian Express source also mentions Adalat and completes the picture), Narayan stating that he played with Amir Khan (p. 116), his daughter saying that her mother was dead (stated in 2001), had come to Mumbai in the 1950s, and Harsh being taught by Narayan (which is at least strongly implied by another Indian Express source used about him later) (p. 133), and her stating more specifically than Qureshi that Narayan taught at NCPA in the 70s, when Qureshi only mentions the 80s (p. 130). One can easily source Aruna playing the sarangi solo in concert with other sources than her statements in Qureshi but somehow I used them so I replaced that one. Regards Hekerui (talk) 02:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Hekerui. You were right to infer that my concern was about primary sources, or more particularly, about Narayan being the key source about himself. I wondered because of course he is a co-author on the Sorrell book. This has the potential to mean he is a significant source in his own bio. I am reassured that your main use of Qureshi is her own work. If you find any other locations in which you can replace Sorrell (1980) with an alternative reliable source, that would strengthen the article. Nevertheless, i understand Sorrell himself is a key expert in relation to the article subject, and the book is obviously published by a reliable academic press. I am tending to support the article at FAC, but I hope others might express a view about whether the citations present them with any issues. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * On the one hand, WP:BLPSPS states that autobiographies published by reliable third-party publishing houses are treated as reliable sources, but on the other hand The Musical Times, Vol. 123, No. 1671 (May 1982), pp. 336 states that the Sorrell book text was written by Sorrell, so it's not an autobio, but in any case I think it's safe to use the source because Manchester University Press is a well-regarded publishing house for scholarly works. Hekerui (talk) 11:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Source review Sources otherwise look OK. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The two main sources both appear to draw on interviews with the article subject, however (see discussion above), they appear OK to me.
 * Screen magazine (note 24) appears OK. The linked article says "Posted online at...", however examination of other articles from Screen suggests this is standard language (ie. does not imply it is an online-only post or blog hosted by Screen) - my reading is that the author is from the Society of Indian Record Collectors, rather than a staff writer.
 * Soma Ghosh (note 25) appears to be a blog post or similar, in Hindi. What makes this a reliable source?
 * After I had found the Yahoo India article by that Soma Ghosh by searching for Narayan's Devanagari name I had a friend who speaks Hindi look at it. She told me it's a feature on Narayan and was so kind to translate things that were not already in the Wiki article: 1) how the 1951 album didn't sell well, 2) that the 1954 venue was Cowasji Jehangir Hall, 3) that his wife's name had been Sheela and that she was a homemaker. It looks like a legit article to me, but if there's disagreement the three details will be removed. Hekerui (talk) 01:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What can you / your friend tell us about the nature of the author and source? Is it a blog? An online site of a magazine or journal? Is it peer reviewed? Any information like that? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote her and received a response:
 * "Regarding your query - the portal looks like a collaboration of Dainik Jagran (a Hindi newspaper in India)- and Yahoo! India. Dainik Jagran's page at Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dainik_Jagran
 * If you notice they have something called Channel Sakhi - and this Yahoo! article falls into Sakhi category.
 * Regarding the author : They have not mentioned in the interview who has written the article."
 * From this I think Soma Ghosh, whose name is only given in the end, is probably just a writer for the newspaper but there's no further info on him/her. The names jagran and sakhi are in the URL of the article and it's in the Sakhi section and on top of the article there is a big जागरण/Jagran so it seems to me like the article is an online version of a newspaper article and hosted by Yahoo India. I also overlooked that at the bottom the copyright notice links to Jagaran Prakashan Ltd., the owner of the Jagran newspaper. I'll fix the cite soon. I fixed the citation. Hekerui (talk) 14:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Dainik Jagran and its regional spin-offs would be reliable sources, so if this is an online presentation of one of their stable of publications, i feel it is probably OK. Others may take a different view. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments. Well, this is one I really want to encourage: fascinating topic, and we need to highlight non-Western traditional music on WP. I find I have lots of quibbles with the text, though, probably on the surface most of it, but not always. Since I've come in so late, I'm not opposing.
 * Link to "Indian cinema" ... it's such a broad article. I looked at the subsection "Film music", which is pretty bad. Pity, because that would make the link worth it.
 * Love the vid. There seem to be no guidelines as to vids. Is it possible to include the duration in the caption? This must be a contender for featured videos, whenever that gets started. Did you superimpose the red text at the start? It's annoying. Can the vid be used in the article on Indian classical music, too?
 * The few words were likely added by Lloyd Miller who got a copy of the original 1970s National Iranian Television broadcast and posted the performance to YouTube. Jog is a popular raga so the performance would fit well into a more general article on Indian classical music, but perhaps File:Ravi Shankar - Madhuvanti - Shiraz Arts Festival.ogg is better since Shankar is more well known and the sitar is generally associated with Indian music.


 * "Narayan has stated that he sees it as his function to please an audience and lead it to stimulation or a state of peace of mind, but expects it to assist him by reacting to his playing." Why "but"? It's not against the first statement. Try: "... of mind; however, in a sign of the reciprocal nature of Indian classical music performance, he expects it ...". Or something like that?
 * I had used the "but" because of the contrast of leading and also expecting something back. I changed the sentence to something more neutral.


 * "wishing" better than "desiring".
 * Agreed, sounds less kitschig.


 * "at a slow or medium tempo, and the second is faster; both gats are usually ...".
 * Changed.


 * "which are referred to as mishra (mixed), because they allow for additional notes." Why "mixed"; it's gone over my head.
 * mishra is "mixed" in Sanskrit, which is now marked. New notes are necessarily from other ragas that don't omit them, so mishra ragas allow playing other ragas, which is how mixing is possible, and additional notes make for more flexibility. I believe the existing explanation is enough though, because it connects light classical music with more notes, making it self-explanatory imo.


 * swara is different from raga?
 * swara is another name for the scale, I simplified that sentence, I agree it was needlessly confusing. Raga is more than a scale, but the scale is one of the features of a raga.


 * uses, not utilizes, please.
 * Changed. I had worried because "use" was used in the sentence before, making it seem kind of samey.


 * "He has created original compositions and in performance varies those he learned." Presumably he has learned his own compositions too. I don't get it: is this improvisation versus learned music?
 * I don't think someone learns his/her own compositions. Compositions are part of the gat section, as clarified in the part where gats are discussed. Got it now, clarified.


 * "disfavors" is awkward. Is "disapproves of" too strong? I don't understand the sentence in which this occurs, either.
 * The explanation in the source starts with "He is also less than enthusiastic about the vogue for creating new rags, ..." which is why I used the less strong wording. The ragas Kafi and Malhar can be combined with each other, for example, and result in Kafi Malhar. I've heard compound ragas as combined from ascent of one raga and descent of the other, but I don't know if other combinations are common, and they often develop from a characteristic phrase, not merely an emphazised note, to not have them dissolve in the constituent ragas. I think exploring this is more than the article scope permits, even though it's fascinating :)


 * Is it possible, at the start of "Style", to characterise his style within Hindustani classical style? Is he typical? Is he an outlier? Is he an innovator (if so, in what ways?), or is he just a superb exponent of a tradition, without being innovative (perfectly possible).
 * The authors have actually devoted some comment on typical vs. unique in his style - I had thought I had delegated that well to the contributions section but added more to the style section and it's clearer now. Hekerui (talk) 19:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I've enlarged a couple of pics: why so small, given the detail? Late 1980s is very dark; can you make his face visible? Tony  (talk)  12:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I had run the image through brightness correction of MS Office Picture manager, which made it lighter, but I tried and failed to improve the image manually by twiddling the knobs of the program. Hekerui (talk) 16:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Should Sorrel 1980 actually be Sorrell and Ram (1980)? Not sure – too many Heineken Pilseners. &bull; Ling.Nut 14:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh. Sorrell writes in the book: "Ram Narayan's most tangible and valuable contribution to the book as it is presented is the cassette recording." (A wonderful Raga Shri btw) He adds that he gained expert knowledge and insight from Narayan, and also from others he doesn't care to name. The Musical Times, cited above, has stated that Sorrel wrote the text and Narayan added knowledge. So I thought Sorrell is clear enough as the text is his. Hekerui (talk) 16:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

SUPPORT Very nicely done. Interesting to read. Good job. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Comments (pending support).
 * Early life.
 * inconsistent commas in first paragraph of Early life.
 * I tried to make improvements.
 * Awkward – despite his father's initial worries about the difficulty of the sarangi and its low status due to its association with courtesan music
 * I separated the sentence to clarify.
 * At about ten... At about 10 years of age, or aged 10, ...
 * Changed.
 * ... convinced him to vacate his position to improve as a musician... resign?
 * Replaced.
 * Narayan enacted the ganda bandhan with another teacher who gave him lessons, but soon left for Lahore and never performed the ritual again .... with another teacher, who gave him lessons, .... who left for Lahore? Who never performed the ritual again?  I realize it is clear in the next paragraph, but it needs to be clear in this sentence.
 * Clarified.


 * Career
 * check those comma inconsistencies.
 * Can you please specify?
 * I fixed them.
 * After sitar player Ravi Shankar successfully performed in Western countries, Narayan became one of the Indian instrumentalists who followed his example... Narayan followed his example.  Or Narayan followed the example of sitar player Ravi Shankar, establishing a successful career among western audiences.
 * Changed.


 * Style
 *  Narayan's musical background is unusual because he learned classical music from teachers outside his community and plays an instrument traditionally used for accompaniment as a solo concert instrument  This is awkward.  Can you tweak it a bit so it reads more easily?  Although his music is typical of Hindustani classical music, his use of the sarangi in solo performance makes him unique. His training by teachers outside his community is also unusual in the tradition of Hindustani classic music education... and...?
 * I reformulated the part.
 * He contributed to the playing of the sarangi by codifying its playing technique. He codified the sarangi playing technique -- what does this mean specifically?  He wrote books about it? He explained it methodically?
 * The source doesn't elaborate so that's probably better explained by directly cutting to the next sentence that describes something substantial.
 * the awards might work better in a box.
 * I trimmed the section for the major awards.


 * family
 * mainly to accompany his brother's sarangi playing  primarily to accompany his brother.
 * Done.
 * commas!!!
 * I tried to improve, but that's not so clear as a direction.
 * A fter Narayan had become a professional sarangi player he was visited by Lal in Delhi in 1948, and Narayan convinced Lal to work as tabla player at the local AIR station. Awkward. Lal visited him in Dehli after he had become a professional sarangi player.  Narayan convinced Lal to work as a tabla player on the local AIR station. On tour, his early mentor Lal, so and so and so and so, helped to promote interest in the tabla. After Lal's death in 1965, Narayan struggled with alcoholism and addiction, but overcame these problems two years later.  (really?  he's in recovery?)
 * I reformulated the part. I thought the "two years later" was clear because 1965 is mentioned, but I changed that, too.
 * you also have 3 consecutive citations to the same source. How about just one for all three sentences?
 * I cited every sentence so if someone comes by and moves it around the source doesn't get lost.
 * commas.

General comments. It might be helpful to put the names of the instruments in italics, since they are another language. In particular, tabla looks very much like a typo for audiences unfamiliar with the language, but I think it would help the overall look. Very nice article. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have applied the italics. Thanks for saying it's nice and leaving comments. Hekerui (talk) 11:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Support — This is a fascinating and well-written contribution. I too think that the duration of the video needs to be given. It would be nice to see something in the Discography section other than a link to the main article. Perhaps, just the recordings that are still widely available? This sentence is a little weak: He learned only through singing, as he had already mastered playing the sarangi. As is this one Narayan contemplated giving up the sarangi for singing. I am not sure what is exactly meant by "only through singing", the contrast with "mastered the sarangi seems odd. In the "giving up" phrase, how about "Narayan contemplated giving up the sarangi and becoming a  singer". I agree that a few more commas would help with the flow of the prose. Having said this, I see no major obstacles in the way of promotion. Well done. Graham Colm (talk) 09:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC).
 * The source makes the contrast that he no longer needed help with sarangi technique, only with what to play, but I condensed the main point that he was taught the ragas by Khan via singing lessons. I had, a long time ago, linked to the record that has an article, Rag Lalit, but that was removed with the explanation that this cherry picking because this one has an article, and indeed there are some more recordings that have been reviewed but no article is started, yet. I added a duration to the file description. Thanks for saying the article is well done and commenting. Hekerui (talk) 11:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Strong Support: Comprehensiveness is my concern. Ram Narayan's official site  gives more information about his life. Please add the detail in the article. Something that is missing the article is the names of his gurus. The site says: "His first Guru, Udaylalji, was a disciple of Allah Banda Jhakurdin (of the Dagar family of Udaipur)". One more area of concern is the list of awards. His site includes other notable awards . If all information given by the official site is incorporated, I will rethink my vote. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 03:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for commenting.
 * Allabande and Zakiruddin Dagar are mentioned in the Sorrell source as Uday Lal's teachers, but Narayan has never studied under them and there is no evidence that he ever had something to do with them. "Giridharilalji, Jahauddin Khan" are not mentioned in reliable sources - probably one of them is the one mentioned in the article as giving him a ganda bandhan, but it's not clear who, and the reliable sources give no emphasis to this teacher.
 * The Padma awards, the national Sangeet Natak Akademi Award, and the Kalidas Samman were given by the national and Madhya Pradesh governments and are already included. I had not included the state Sangeet Natak Akademi award because I thought it more or less redundant to the national Sangeet Natak Akademi award, but included it now. The Rajasthan Samaj Award is only mentioned on Narayan's website, the "Life Time Achievement Award" is too unspecified, and the included list only gives trivial mentions and nothing on the government websites either, so I don't believe they should be included. The Aditya Birla Life Time Achievement Award is an award by the corporate entity Aditya Birla Management Corporation Ltd. and I had earlier excluded it because it's more or less a vanity award for the company, but I agree one can make the argument that it could be included because it was awarded by the governor of Maharashtra in the name of the company, so I readded it.
 * Hekerui (talk) 11:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * MAHARASHTRA GAURAV PURASKAR, is given by the Govt of Maharashtra, where Narayan is currently resident. SHIROMANI AWARD is received by many well-known people .  See left-hand list in the site page.
 * For the Maharashtra Gaurav Puraskar I searched the website of the Maharashtra government and there is nothing about Narayan or the award itself, unlike with all the other government awards included in the article. Narayan is not included in the list of winners on the website of the Shiromani Awards and I can't find anywhere in what year the award supposedly was given.
 * "Giridharilalji, Jahauddin Khan" are not mentioned in reliable sources. Umm... What can be a better RS than the official site?
 * It's an artist website. I think one can take some personal life info from it if it conforms with WP:Primary but when the info is unclear and there is a book that includes info on his education and is published by a reputable press that should take precedent.
 * IMO (others may disagree), the article has lots of info (complete), but misses some (IMO) critical info: "Mahadev Prasadji was of advanced age by then and before his death he advised Ram Narayan to go to Lahore to learn from Abdul Waheed Khan who too was not a regular Ustad but more of a Sufi saint.", "at the age of 12 I had started teaching music in 2 schools in Udaipur as a part-time teacher", "In 1954 he had accompanied Ustad Ali Akbar to the USA for concerts" . etc. Indian express, cited in the article says "He accompanied great masters of vocal music like Krishnarao Shankar Pandit, Omkarnath Thakur, Bade Ghulam Ali, Amir Khan and Hirabai Badodekar". No mention. IMO, the article should have more detail. Ram Narayan, Saviour of the sarangi, deserves it and I know that Hekerui can write such an article. I leave it to other editors to decide. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 12:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Reverse order: It's included that he was an accompanist for AIR and worked with popular singers and Amir Khan is included as an example and because it was a special occasion, but mentioning all the people becomes name dropping and serves no purpose as the article is not about them. The person who went to the U.S. in 1954 was Chatur Lal, not Narayan; Narayan first went 1964 as described. That he was a teacher is documented using reliable sources but he was at least between 14 and 17 when he worked at the school according to those sources and as written in the article, not 12, so the website is contradicted by reliable sources there. The Sorrell source talks about the advice from Prasad but the tutelage seemed more like an accident from the description that followed in the source, but I'll include it. Hekerui (talk) 13:55, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops. Misread it 1954 tour. Sorry. I am surprised that official site can be incorrect. I suggest an external peer review be requested on "the contact" on the site (harshnarayan1@gmail.com - possibly Ram Narayan's grandson, Harsh Narayan - he may be able to provide more info, ref on Ram Narayan) to check facts. Still all awards, gurus (which are very important in the music tradition) mentioned in the site, are not mentioned. More names:Extracts from: "Panditji has been playing regularly since then in the most prestigious classical music concerts held in different parts of the World like Shiraz Festival, Berlin Festival, Vienna Festival, Gstaad Festival, London City Festival etc", "some musicians like Pt Omkarnath Thakur and Pt Krishnarao Shankar Pandit understood it (sarangi) really well, and did encourage Ram Narayan whenever he used to accompany them in their concerts." No change in vote. Note to Hekerui: It is not necessary that I change my vote for a pass of this FAC. A FAC can pass with an oppose if comments in the oppose are answered or are invalid. All the best for the FAC. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replying, I didn't ask you to change your vote, just wanted "I leave it to other editors to decide" clarified.
 * 1) I'm not sure I can ask the website contact to look over the article, it would be kind of COI, right? 2) I think his teachers are described and their teachers are not that important since what they taught, in the Dagar case dhrupad, is explained, and Narayan is notably independent, as explained with sources in the style section. 3) What concerts he played exactly is not described in the encyclopedias or books, but in what time frame he played frequently abroad and how much time that took up is explained via the sources. Narayan apparently was a rather low profile performer in the West compared to, say, Ravi Shankar, whose concerts were frequently reported. 4) As for the points: Omkarnath Thakur and Krishnarao Shankar Pandit being supportive is in the Sorrell source along with some other names, I condensed this to "Other singers and tabla (percussion) players publicly expressed admiration for Narayan's playing." in the article because the specific people are not the article subject. Hekerui (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not take it as a request to change my mind, but just as a request to review and clarify. "Other singers and tabla (percussion) players publicly expressed admiration for Narayan's playing." is too vague and reader asks are they. As you may know, gurus are very important in a music traditions and what gharanas influenced an artiste's style. You are ask harshnarayan1@gmail.com, where the missing facts like the name of the 4th child, when was the marriage held, name of the mother. One of ref  says: Back in India, Ram Narayan embellished thousands of film songs with the soulful strains of Sarangi, besides scoring music for films like “Garam Kot”, “Tulsidas”. The last names seem to be notable. Also as WP:LAYOUT (see File:Wikipedia layout sample Notes References.png) separate references and Book names, as done for Quereshi book.-- Redtigerxyz  Talk 16:12, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) And then I tell the names and people don't know them - should the article be burdened explaining who Omkarnath Thakur is and who taught Narayan's teachers? 2) I can't do original research like asking Harsh Narayan about family details. 3) The quote is not sheet music, it's "besides scoring music for films", and some examples were included but I can't add all. And the Indian paper says thousands of songs, but there's evidence for perhaps half a dozen films. 4) Per WP:LAYOUT: "Some articles divide this type of information into two or more separate sections; others combine it into a single section. How to best organize and title the results when the footnotes are separate from the works cited proper is mostly unresolved." So it's actually fine to keep things together. 16:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I might jump in here and say that the use of "official sites" is a chronic problem at WP. esp. on pages that are biographies of living entertainers, bands, films etc. I do not agree with the extent to which many people treat them as reliable, when they have an obvious COI, are generally not peer-reviewed, nor written by professional critics or experts. Hekerui has highlighted an example where in fact the "official" site appears to have facts wrong about its own subject. I suspect this is pretty common. Can you imagine, thirty years ago, visiting the "official" Elizabeth Taylor webpage and hoping to find accurate information about her age or her various marriages? :-) I absolutely agree with Hekerui's general approach here. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, I think all notable awards must be listed for the article to be comprehensive. I do not see the reason why an award given by 1 one state govt (only Madhya Pradesh before my comments) is included, and by another (Raj. (birth state) - now included, Maha. (residence) - still not) is not. Besides the official site, list also available at ICMS site. ICMS also says: "His efforts  received encouragement and praise from singers like Pt. Omkar Nath Thakur. Pt. Krishna Rao Shanker Pandit and many others." (like the official site acknowledges their contribution to Narayan's enrichment). These names are important, as there praised Narayan at a time when there is no praise for a sarangi player. A wiki article should cater to both an expert and a non-expert. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 03:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For Notes: If the section needs to be a single section, then follow Footstyle from Citing_sources, where book details is included in all references. If two sections (see Shortened footnotes section): 1 with pp.; other with details. Please do not follow 2 conventions. It is difficult to track references. E.g. I clicked on a ref 80 Qureshi 2007, p. 131, then I have to scan the whole list where the book details are in the current form of the ref. This is a minor issue. If Hekerui discusses on a style, I can fix it. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 03:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what Redtiger is getting at re "expert and non-expert". My understanding is that Hekerui has included those awards that are from governments, and are cited in reliable sources (ie. other than the official site). If there is verification of a state award from a reliable source, and it is yet to be included, then i would support its inclusion. But not otherwise. I'm not sure what view others might have about whether the ICMS Chicago webpage biographies should be treated as reliable. I don't know they would qualify in terms of the highest quality sources that we aim for at FAC, though i recognise sometimes one has to take one's information where one can find it. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:37, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Sorry to be unclear again. By "expert and non-expert", I meant those you know about Indian music - know names like Pt. Omkar Nath Thakur. Pt. Krishna Rao Shanker Pandit. In Indian music, an artiste's gharana or music tradition and gurus are equally important. 2. I tried searching for Maharashtra gaurav puraskar ("Honour of Maharashtra award") site or a government site giving the list, but did not find one. If no "reliable sources" on the net, that does not mean that the award was not given. Why would an official site lie? IMO Elizabeth Taylor's official site may hide her husbands, but wouldn't lie saying (eg) she got 5 Oscars. Official site's do have glorifications and POVs, but false claims to prestigious awards, I really don't still so. It should noted that Sorrell book was written in 1980 and thus, does not include Narayan's life at least after 1980. Qureshi's book 2007 is about sarangi players, not only Ram Narayan, so I am not sure if it will cover all facets of Narayan in detail. These may the reasons that the other awards are not noted. One more thing: THIS IS THE BEST ARTICLE ON RAM NARAYAN ON THE NET (I do not dispute this fact), but sadly this is  not a FA criterion. There may RS beyond the net to confirm Maharashtra gaurav puraskar, like Marathi or Mumbai editions of English national newspapers. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 08:11, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I added the teachers of Uday Lal and found the awards at least mentioned in an article by the The Times of West Mumbai, albeit in passing and without a year, and added them. Hekerui (talk) 10:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

(undent)
 * Pending issues summary:
 * Additional gurus' names: Giridharilalji, Jahauddin Khan per official site (IMO, an official site about lie about this as gurus are very important). A neutral way to acknowledge this is perhaps something like: "Ram Narayan's official site acknowledges two more gurus: Giridharilalji, Jahauddin Khan"
 * "Ram Narayan's official site acknowledges two more gurus" is unencyclopedic, the reliable sources mention Lal and Prasad and emphasize their teaching but don't mention either of the other two per name or as important
 * I beg to differ. Gurus are extremely important in the Indian music tradition. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Added names of them as people Narayan learned from, but there is no other content about them I could find.


 * Names of all awards per official site (IMO, an official site about lie about this as they are verifiable by other sources - found online source for SHIROMANI AWARD, but not others)
 * "Names of all awards per official site" - the "Life Time Achievement Award" on the website is not specific, "Rajasthan Samaj Award" is nowhere else to be found - I believe one can't indiscriminately add content just because it is on the artist homepage - the awards already included have third party sources
 * At least add all awards given in the ref you added: "Even Pandit Ram Narayan has won several awards including Padmavibhushan, Padmabhushan, Padmashree, Kalidas Sanman, Sangeet Natak Academy (Delhi), Sangeet Natak Academy (Rajasthan), Maharashtra Gaura Puraskar, Rajasthan Welfare Association and Shiromani Award." -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That leaves the Rajasthan Welfare Association Award since the Sangeet Natak Akademi Award (Delhi) is the Sangeet Natak Akademi Award proper. I added it.


 * "Other singers and tabla (percussion) players publicly expressed admiration for Narayan's playing" Too vague . Names' dropping is necessary. The site acknowledges two in particular: two well-known singers: Pt Omkarnath Thakur and Pt Krishnarao Shankar Pandit (Sangeet Natak Akademi Award and Padma Bhushan recipient), who inspired him in a period of life, when Narayan needed it most
 * Added two mentioned in the book source.
 * OK. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "He accompanied great masters of vocal music like Krishnarao Shankar Pandit, Omkarnath Thakur, Bade Ghulam Ali, Amir Khan and Hirabai Badodekar." Names dropping is necessary as these were the most famous singers of their time, who could have the best accomplices. Amir Khan is mentioned.
 * So far the article only uses from his website the time span of playing in films (and it's clear from the Qureshi sourced part discussing his film work that this information is quite unaccessible otherwise because film work was poorly regarded) and two minor family life details. I hesitate to add more from the artist website because of the problems with reliability discussed earlier.
 * This is not from the site, see ref link in the discussion above. Indian express, which is already cited in the article. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, added them.


 * Reference convention: Choosing one.
 * Is there any objections if I add these in the article? As said before if Hekerui chooses the ref convention, I can do that too. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The references must be consistent though, not only one book put in a different section as you did earlier. The current referencing is allowed by WP:LAYOUT and fine in my opinion.
 * "only one book put in a different section as you did earlier", it was just a sample. The current version mixes the two versions in Citing_sources, namely Footnote system and Shortened footnotes. Violates 2c criterion. Please choose a style and let me know, I will fix it OR give me the liberty to choose a style. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I separated the sections like it's done in Barack Obama.

New:
 * "For the next 15 years he played and composed songs for films, including Humdard, Adalat, Milan, Gunga Jumna, Mughal-e-Azam, and Kashmir Ki Kali" Ram Narayan seems to have only played for Mughal-e-Azam (music composer for the film was Naushad), and did not compose for atleast Mughal-e-Azam . So separate the films where he played and where he composed into two sentences.
 * I clarified it.
 * Two lists would be better and clearer. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I separated the two activities. Hekerui (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "He became notorious among the vocalists of the city, who complained he was not a consistent accompanist" Vague. Exactly . -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians explains the general sentiment and doesn't add a list of names of people who complained, I don't believe this makes it vague. Hekerui (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Moving towards Support. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * All issues resolved. Changed my vote. Kudos Hekerui.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. It's beautifully-written, and the author shows a thorough understanding of both the biographical and musical aspects of the subject—something I rarely encounter in musical biographies. Thanks for sharing this with us. -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  19:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.