Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rapping/archive1

Rapping
This article covers the topic completely. It is well written, accurate, sourced, and readable.--Urthogie 21:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm not sure as though all of the lyrics that are currently being displayed in the article qualifies as fair use. Correct me if I am wrong, though. &mdash;Eternal Equinox | talk 22:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * They are all fair use-- The email where permission to show South Park Mexican's lyrics was granted is on the talk page.--Urthogie 22:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 *  Object /Comment: Nice article which could do with some expansion. Some notes from my first read- 1) the footnotes don't seem to be numbered correctly (comparing the numbers in the main text with the numbers at the bottom). 2) this line "Mainstream artists such as Eminem (who, ironically, is white) tend to have a larger percentage of black concert-goers than their underground counterparts" - don't you mean that they have a larger percentage of white concert-goers? The article reference linked says that a Eminem and 50 cent concert attracted an audience which is 50%-60% white (this is just one concert though - is there an article which has a broader survey?). 3) can the theme words in the subject matter section be wikilinked like the ones in the principle sections 4) I think that an international or multicultral rap section would be a good addition e.g. rap in France and Japan (I know you have the "international derivatives" section but I was thinking about the UK, French and Japanese (and perhaps elsewhere) acts which are described explicitly as rap. Bwithh 23:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Number 1 has been addressed. Number 2 has been addressed by reducing the generalization. As far as the theme words in the subject matter section, it wouldn't make sense to link them because people know the definition of love and sex-- it wouldn't be a useful wikilink. As far number four, I don't see why that would make sense to add-- hip hop sounds different in England than in America(I've been living here about a year), but there's no style of rapping that you couldn't find elsewhere in the world(although certain styles are more popular).--Urthogie 10:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Support: Article looks great and ready for featuring--Chubdub 04:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak object: This article is extremely close to FA-quality, and as a member of the wikipedia hip hop community, I would be very happy to see it included as a FA (since there are not many hip hop-related articles included as FAs). However, I think the 50 cent picture must undergo the fair use rationale policy for its inclusion in the article, because I don't see the relationship between rapping abilities and him being a top charting rapper.--Chubdub 11:48, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. The 50 cent picture is part of the creative commons, so there's clearly no copyright issue.  The fact that he's chart-topping just goes to show that his style is popular.--Urthogie 12:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * fair enough. I hanve no strong objection for removing the picture entirely, but I would still consider changing the text to make it seem more appropriate to the subject. We would not want readers unfamiliar with hip hop to equate lyrical abilities with mainstream sucess after all --Chubdub 12:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's the thing: I don't think we should say any guy is good because of anything-- thats a subjective judgement. However, objective facts like record sales are definitely encyclopedic in their relationship to skills.  To sum up what I'm saying, record sales does not equal skills-- but it comes into any discussion about skills.--Urthogie 12:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * But the best-selling hip hop artists in history are known to have been critically maligned (MC Hammer, Puffy, Vanilla Ice are perhaps the best example). Nevertheless, you do have a point. I would still argue that there is litle relevance to rapping skills itself, but record sales are certainly definitive, especially when compared to subjective opinions.--Chubdub 13:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree completely. 50 definitely isn't the best lyricist around or even near it(hell, he didn't even write in da club, but I think he's popular because of his delivery and persona more than anything)--Urthogie 13:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Object Article has lists that need to be turned into prose. Images that aren't going to be deleted for lack of info need fair use rationales.  Jkelly 07:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You incorrectly marked 50 cent rapping as unsourced and whatnot, when an email that states it is part of the creative commons is on its image info page. How exactly could the lists be turned into prose?--Urthogie 07:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The lists that I'm talking about are the "Principles of writing and delivering raps" and "Subject matter" sections. Not only are they not really "Brilliant prose" insofar as they are bulleted lists, it is not clear to me that everything we are asserting there is verifiable and not original research.  For instance "Some hip hop fans regard speed as an important sign of skill, while others regard it as irrelevant." is almost certainly true, but I'm concerned about what we're saying when we have that as number six on a list; it is presented as if we're making a special point about some kind pf "importance of speed" controversy for our sixth-most-important criteria.  I don't think that this is what is intended by the list formatting,(or by the weasel words), but I would suggest that prose summarizing the points would be both better writing and be less prone to being read as any kind of choice on our parts about relative importance.  I hope that this explains why I am concerned by the bulleted-list format for those two sections.  Jkelly 19:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Object - multiple stacked images, spread them out. lead doesnt summarize article.  dont put external links in the article text. would prefer fewer bullets, but more general with lengthier prose, in "principles of..." and "subject matter" sections. some images are marked as fairuse but dont really qualify here e.g. jin freestyle friday), and they dont cite source for image, or fairuse criteria.  dont put "see also" articles that are already wikilinked in the main article. Zzzzz 20:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Jkelly and Zzzzz, I've addressed all but two of your concerns with the article:
 * 50 cent image needs replacement.
 * I will find a replacement very soon that is okay to use.


 * Putting subject matter section into prose.
 * As you can see, I put techniques of writing and delivering raps into prose. However, I think it's not a good idea to put subject matter into prose.  It doesn't seem possible to form properly sized paragraphs out of that list.

So, once I get a replacement for the 50 cent image, would you two support this as a featured article?--Urthogie 16:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I just uploaded a free image of 50 Cent to Wikimedia Commons, but it is his mug shot -- probably not what we want to be leading this article with. Nevertheless, if you feel inspired, you may want to experiment with cropping it and seeing if you can get anything useable.  I've struck my list-based objection; I am still not crazy about the "Subject matter" being a list, but I defer to your judgement on the article.  I remain concerned about the images being used in the article, however.  Jkelly 16:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * We wanted to use an image of a famous rapper in the act of rapping, so a mug shot wouldn't much help. Would you support this article without a lead image?--Urthogie 17:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That wouldn't bother me, but some other editors may object. The Vanilla Ice image is under a free license... Joking aside, there are some free images here and here.  Jkelly 21:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you think of this? Jkelly 02:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Snoop image is good. By the way, I replaced the vanilla ice image with fair use album art.  So all the images are fair use now, no?--Urthogie 09:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * extend this section in lead to give examples: "Rappers employ several techniques and principles in writing and delivering raps.". every image has problems, they dont meet requirements laid out at Image_description_page, please also familiarise yourself with everything on that page. one example: ludacris image has no source info, uses an incorrect tag, and has no fair use rationale. those 2 should be easy. this one is harder: subject matter section is not well-written, and non-comprehesive, seeming to lack a lot of info. please describe in more detail what exactly rapping about "partying" means, and what is "storytelling"? almost nothing about what "story" is in thix context? arent all the categories "storytelling"? there is no expln of what a "diss rap" is. give specific examples, not just "e.g. Biz Markie", find a joke he told. idea is to explain all this to someone unfamiliar with rapping. whole section assumes too much. i suggest entire section is reviewed by a 3rd party. Zzzzz 10:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * also found multiple spelling mistakes eg comparible, accompaniement, esstential etc. Zzzzz 23:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you want me to do to make the images acceptible? I don't understand, the whole image process confuses me.--Urthogie 11:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * click on the images at The Illuminatus! Trilogy to see how it should be done. Zzzzz 13:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Object
 * History/Subject matter is very hard to read with all the quotes/dotpoints, its kind of a mess
 * How would you suggest we list the subject matter section? And why remove the quotes?--Urthogie 08:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Never said remove it, it is just not aesthetically pleasing. Cvene64 08:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I'm kind of in a catch 22 on that point then.--Urthogie 09:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Surely, surely there would be a section on criticisms of the genre.
 * Rapping isn't a genre. Hip hop is a genre.  Rapping is something that appears in many genres.--

Urthogie 08:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I see there is info in the hip-hop article.


 * The Identity section is a mess. Where is the reference that confirms the claim that living closer to a poor area increases the likelihood of listening to rap? Massive POV problems as well; who is giving respect to 3rd Base, me? you? wheres the source! "Almost all popular rappers identify themselves as heterosexual" again, says who? provide examples!
 * The article doesn't claim that you're more likely to listen to rap if you're poorer. It says if you live in a city, you're more likely, and that is sourced.  I will find a source for the 3rd Bass claim.  As far as almost all popular rappers identifying themselves as heterosexual, this is a very obvious fact.  I defy you to find a currently charting rapper who does not mention their heterosexual relationships.--Urthogie 08:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. I await your source. :) Cvene64 02:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. It's sourced now-- he performed with hip hop legends like KRS and Rakim.  The content of this show was controlled by the hip hop headz themself and was the central hip hop show of its time.--Urthogie 09:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I have reworked the article to address all of your aesthetic concerns and concerns about the images(they're all public domain now). As you can see, the list by subject matter remains. I did make one change to it: I sorted it by alphabetical order-- now it is impossible to claim the ordering is based on stressing the importance of one element. I stand by my opinion that it wouldn't be reasonably possible to turn this into brilliant prose-- some things just lend themselves to lists. I await your reply.--Urthogie 22:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)