Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Red-necked Grebe


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:28, 2 September 2008.

Red-necked Grebe

 * Nominator(s): jimfbleak (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because its passed GA, been improved since then, and it looks quite pretty (back to British English for this one, I'm afraid) jimfbleak (talk) 06:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Minor pickiness
 * First line - they are water birds... water bird or waterbird? We tend to use the compound word on wikipedia (seabird not sea bird), which I accept doesn't mean it has to be that the whole wayy through, but I think waterbird is more common. Also, I'm not certain, but is waterbird a general term for freshwater birds or just the ducks? Perhaps that is a matter for here though. Maybe The Red-necked Grebe is an aquatic bird? Sorry, I'm rambling.
 * The caption - Wing flapping is a ritualised display behaviour - is this a territory defence behaviour or a courtship behaviour? Both?
 * Overall I am happy with the content though. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  07:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, changed to "aquatic" and "territorial" jimfbleak (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * All images are freely licensed and meet FA criteria requirements. —Giggy 11:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking jimfbleak (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose—Way below the professional standard of writing that is required. This nomination is premature; tell me, please, that you're not using our scarce reviewer resources as a free article-improvement "gas service station" you just drive into. Please consider widening your collaborative circle so that you can prepare your nominations adequately before launching them. It's not fair on the system, including nominators who do prepare to standards, and the reviewers.
 * "The Red-necked Grebe, Podiceps grisegena, is an aquatic bird which breeds in northwestern North America, Europe and Asia. It is migratory, wintering around ocean coasts or on large lakes." I had to wonder where it goes in the summer; I guess we have to piece together the assumption that it breeds in summer—we're not even semi-experts. Why not make it crystal clear, and solve the stub sentence at the same time: "The Red-necked Grebe, Podiceps grisegena, is an migratory, aquatic bird that breeds in northwestern North America, Europe and Asia and winters around ocean coasts or on large lakes." Now it's more obvious.
 * (agreed, now why didn't I think of that?) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the suggestion of abusing FAC is appropriate (see WP:Goodfaith). This article has been through GA, and I've worked on it since. I don't think you should ask others to collaborate with me when you are not prepared to do so yourself, and greet requests for help with rudeness (this probably isn't helping my cause). I do review at GAN and FAC myself, although since you don't think I'm competent to do so, that's probably a waste of my time too, at least at FAC. - Jim
 * I would have thought that it was common sense that birds breed in summer, rather than winter - hardly an example of expertise. Modified as suggested, but do you actually want summer in the sentence? - Jim


 * "This grebe's red neck, black cap and contrasting pale grey face make it distinctive when in breeding plumage, but it loses much of its colour in winter to appear as a rather dusky-grey bird." "This grebe" sounds as though you're about to contrast it with other grebes. But you don't. "The bird's ...". "Although" might be better than "but". "Rather" is an interpersonal epithet, and is too subjective for WP: "... to become a dusky grey"? I see more "buts" below, and they don't look as though they're proper contrastives. I've raised this issue before in relation to your nominations.
 * I think Casliber has fixed this. I accept the "but" comment and I can see that "rather" may not be appropriate. I actually think " The grebe" is better than "The bird", but you're the boss - Jim

(I changed about 2/3rds of the buts to althoughs, th eremaining ones I though were better as 'buts'. As an exercise, I'd be intrigued whether you agreed with which ones were better changed from my diff.) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Its two subspecies are similar in plumage, although the race found in North America and eastern Asia is larger than the European form." Is "race" the right word for birds? "Although" is a false contrast; why shouldn't the Nth Am. and eastern A. ones be larger with their similar plumage? "And" is better. This confusion over additive versus contrastive clauses is a continuing theme in your writing, I'm afraid. I don't usually direct people to my 1a essay, but there is a section in it on that very aspect.
 * "race" is standard as a synonym for "subspecies", and obviously doesn't carry the baggage that it does when applied to humans. I have read your excellent essay, there would be even more for you to attack if I hadn't. - Jim

Now, that's just the first, small para in the lead. I'm not reading any more until it's properly presented. I suggest withdrawal, work, and resubmission. Tony  (talk)  11:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to withdraw, if it fails, it fails, and I'll move on. jimfbleak (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

*Comments I didn't think it was that bad, but I will try and help - I haven't had much of a lookover of this one yet. Other comments below. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for constructive edits, look forward to your comments jimfbleak (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * on the but/although, the first one (good swimmer/useless on land) I would have thought was a contrast, but happy to leave as is jimfbleak (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I did think about that, but it is actually pretty common for water creatures to have limited mobility on land, hence not surprising really. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments


 * Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments regarding images:
 * Image:Podicepsgrisegena.jpg - image source is a dead link (how can we verify federal authorship?)
 * Image:Grebe.jpg - image source is a dead link (how can we verify federal authorship?)
 * Image:Grèbejougrisparade.jpg - image source is a dead link (how can we verify federal authorship?)
 * Image:Lake-huron-ipperwash-beach.jpg - needs a verifiable source (i.e. an explicit assertion of authorship; no author is cited here)
 * Image:Podiceps-grisegena-008.jpg - needs a verifiable source (the implication from a self GFDL variant is not good enough; assertion of authorship needs to be explicit) ЭLСОВВОLД  talk 22:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking, Image:Grèbejougrisparade.jpg clicks straight through to USFWS digital image, not sure why it's dead for you. Similarly Image:Podicepsgrisegena.jpg also links through for me. Perhaps it's your browser, or a temporary site unavailability? I've removed all the disputed images, but it's a pity about Image:Grèbejougrisparade.jpg since it's a terrific picture and link works for me. I've added Image:Podiceps griseigena 2 (Marek Szczepanek).jpg to replace Image:Podiceps griseigena 1 (Marek Szczepanek).jpg, which was OK anyway. and added Image:Podiceps grisegena9.jpg: it's USFWS again, but the url works for me at least. jimfbleak (talk) 06:30, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * USFWS images work now; perhaps the site had been down for a moment? I haven't changed computers, browsers, or settings and the links are working for me now... ЭLСОВВОLД  talk 13:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The images currently in the article look fine (I restored Image:Grèbejougrisparade.jpg, as the link is working); I'll drop a note for the uploader of Image:Podiceps-grisegena-008.jpg to see whether s/he can add the information needed. Ipperwash beach, on the other hand, was a "drive by" uploader in 2005, so I don't think it can be salvaged.  ЭLСОВВОLД  talk 13:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, thanks. The Ipperwash image was just a nice habitat pic, so no big deal jimfbleak (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

 Oppose  per 1A and 1B. The article clearly exceeds GA standards, and I wholeheartedly commend jimfbleak on the incredible job he has done shepherding this article from a stub to its present form... I've been poking around in JSTOR and AcademicSearchPremier etc. (and even on the dreaded EB- gasp!), and I think there are several facts that still need to be incorporated.. the species is called a "helldiver" due to its diving skill; the parents abandon their young at night, the restriction to coastal wintering areas is unlike other grebes... etc. I have emailed a set of articles to jimfbleak. Moreover, the writing needs more than a little polishing in my opinion. The WP:LEDE in particular causes me some hesitation... I think that this article could be buffed up to FA standards in about 2 weeks of concentrated editing. But I have to !vote now, so ... Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 04:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for accessing the subscription stuff and kind words. I'm incorporating some of the new material, although not sure what to do about "helldiver" which is applied to other species in NAm. Wintering on coasts isn't unusual for grebes, all the migratory species do, afaik. jimfbleak (talk) 06:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Revised the lede, see the article's Talk. This now has four paragraphs; I disagree with mechanically following the suggestions on Lead section regarding this but am open to suggested improvements. I also prefer the infobox image I had placed there over the one currently there.. the image I had placed seems to highlight the plumage more clearly etc.. but as per usual I would not argue against consensus..
 * MMm apparently all grebes can and do winter on coasts, but the Bubba is distinctive for being largely restricted to that area... I got the "unusual wintering" bit here. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 06:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine on lead, The book is NAm only, its not unusual outside that continent. I've incorporated key points from all the subscription stuff except the Bonnie Stout article (not peer-reviewed journal) thanks again, jimfbleak (talk) 07:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Support, but please include a description of the eggs and the chicks as requested by RaveDave below. And thanks for another interesting article. Graham Colm Talk 21:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Comments on today's version:
 * I don't like Perhaps the best... - it sounds vague.
 * A ball is not amorphous - it's a ball.
 * We have nominate throughout the article, I'm not sure what it means, do you need to say this? Graham Colm Talk 13:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * thanks, Graham. Perhaps and the ball now gone. "Nominate" now has a better link which explains clearly. I don't really want to copy the explanation into the text - although it's a simple idea, it's a bit wordy to gloss in the article. jimfbleak (talk) 15:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Graham jimfbleak (talk) 05:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ling
 * What does this mean: "Occurs as a vagrant in Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India"? Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 16:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not noticed this addition, tidied, I'll look for a link for vagrant - Jim


 * This is a tangled sentence: "The parents do not interfere with the feeding of their chicks while they are still at the stage of being carried for most of the time, but subsequently they care for the younger chicks for longer, and show aggression to the older offspring, thus equalising the post-fledging survival of all chicks, and encouraging their independence." Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 16:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * fixed by Graham -Jim


 * Brood splitting: see pages 74, 76 and 146 Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 17:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * added - Jim


 * this downloadable pdf of a book from 1816 has a very nice illustration showing the rearward placement of the red-necked grebe's legs. page 143 Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 17:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've no idea how to convert a pdf into a png. - Jim
 * I can do it, if you want the image. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 08:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * personally, I'd leave it out, since it's not really in keeping with the photographs, but it's not a big deal if you think it's useful. jimfbleak (talk) 10:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I'm not the bird guy here :-) I defer to your wisdom, as always. :-) I won't make the .png. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 11:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Red-necked Grebes are fierce, and in the breeding season they attack Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 17:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you meant here? . Also this link contradicts them being 'fierce' - Dave
 * Fjeldsa might be an expert, but his English is dreadful - a bit further on he says they are "brave" - anthropomorphic or what? - Jim


 * breeding season early spring and late fall? I keep finding snippets to suggest this; one e.g. "The Red-necked Grebe breeds in small numbers on inland freshwater lakes in Hokkaido (Ishikari and Kitami) where its season is from April to October."  Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 17:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * misleading, RNG rarely second broods, and while it might be present in Hokkaido in October, it certainly wouldn't be starting to lay eggs then. I'll add a bit about second broods or relaying extending the season though - Jim


 * they're not simply clumsy on land; they cannot take off from it. Ling.Nut
 * I think you meant here - Dave
 * added to description - Jim

(WP:3IAR) 17:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * hunted for feathers; now protected (where?): Both EB and this say grebes were a favorite of milliners due to their bright, silky plumage. This may be moe pertinent to grebe than  red-necked grebe. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 18:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's the Great Crested Grebe in Europe, with its more southern and western range that really suffered - Jim


 * very nice table, page 24, breeding population estimates in Europe. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 18:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Snow gives figures for even more countries, but I didn't want to get bogged down in too much detailed data. - Jim

Comments
 * "It dives for fish or picks insects off vegetation, and swallows its own feathers, possibly to protect the digestive system." could probably be two sentences. Only 20% of it's diet is fish so the order should be at least changed. The fact could even be called out.
 * I think that would be misleading. Where does the 20% come from? proportions of fish are higher in NAm and northernmost Europe anyway, and both ssp eat mainly fish in winter. I've semi-coloned the sentence though - Jim


 * Have you looked for freely available audio to add?
 * couldn't find any - Jim


 * Have you looked for pictures of the bird in flight?
 * Couldn't find any, migrate at night and don't fly during the day much - Jim


 * Can you mention the chicks distinctive appearance? They look very different from the parents, and from other waterfowl chicks that I have seen.
 * It's there under "description" - Jim


 * Is it known why the chicks colored this way?
 * Couldn't find anything, all Podiceps chicks are striped, like all crake chicks are black - I think people would just be speculating anyway


 * Mention the color of its eggs?
 * It's there under "breeding" - Jim

-Ravedave (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, i found egg color but skipped it. Will try to relocate. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 18:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * light blue to chalky white, quickly stained Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 18:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * see above - jimfbleak (talk) 06:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) A little bit of redundancy: the "Breeding and survival" section seems to mention floating nests in two places; the "description" section seems to discuss plumage in two places. Maybe could be reorganized a little? I could do it later, if no one else does. Also... the part about splitting the brood.. should that go in the "feeding" section or in "breeding"? I'm not saying it has to be moved; I'm not a bird person.. but it seems beter matched to the "breeding" section to me. I defer to others' opinions. Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 05:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've moved the chick bit as suggested, similarly with description. Not sure about the nesting, first mention is of the large masses used for colonial breeding, to which the nests are attached, second is of the nests themselves. Please reword if that's unclear jimfbleak (talk) 06:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support comprehensive enough and well written with good media. The map seems to be outdated or does not include a large area of vagrancy in Asia. Would also like some info on hunting, it appears that it was eaten quite a bit in the Stone Age by humans. There is a "grebe" call here http://www.freesound.org/tagsViewSingle.php?id=10542 and if it is of the right species, it may be a good idea to include it. License is suitable Shyamal (talk) 07:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * thanks, and thanks also for the numerous copy edits. I'm not convinced about the call, doesn't really match my CD with Red-necked, but it has lots of different calls - might be Slav? The map is a bit elderly, but range maps don't normally show vagrancy anyway (or do you mean regular wintering?). I'll look at the stone age bit, but it may not be today - do you have a link jimfbleak (talk) 09:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The range map appears to be distorted and stretched in a North-South direction. Also, it has non-standard range colours. Snowman (talk) 10:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not possible to accurately depict a spherical surface on a plane, so all maps of large areas distort distances or directions or both. By non-standard, I assume you mean WP:BIRD recommendations. It's not easy to recolour, but the map is not a requirement of FA, so I could remove it. The map has an unambiguous legend, so I'd rather keep it with non-standard colours than remove it. jimfbleak (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to standard (WP:Bird) colours. Snowman (talk) 10:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Can you let me know (elsewhere) what program you used? jimfbleak (talk) 11:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Support (moral or otherwise) - prose has been buffed up nicely since last I looked. Could find even less to correct and note above comments, queries and answers. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and thanks for edits. Ling.nut and Shyamal helped to improve the standard too, both with editing and with finding material that I don't have access too - or just didn't find! jimfbleak (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Ling.Nut (WP:3IAR) 02:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this should have been a co-nom really, the amount of effort you've put into it. I'll have to go back to uni to get access to some of those sources too! First time around I don't think the telephone was invented, let alone the Internet (: jimfbleak (talk) 05:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.