Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Red Skelton/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 20:45, 25 July 2014.

Red Skelton

 * Nominator(s): We hope (talk) 14:14, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the well-known American comic Red Skelton. Skelton's 70 year career in entertainment included vaudeville, films, radio and a weekly television show that aired for 20 years. He was also a well-known artist specializing in portraits of clowns. While he had done artwork as a hobby for many years, his professional life as an artist began with the first public showing of his work in 1964. Skelton is said to have earned more money through his artwork than from his long-lived television program.

The article has been through peer review, and I'd like to thank those who got it to this point once more- Crisco 1492,  Cassianto ,  Tim riley , SchroCat,  and  Mlpearc  for their time and effort with this article. We hope (talk) 14:14, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support on prose. I've nitpicked this to bits on two or three occasions already, and it looks better than ever. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support: I was another happy punter at PR: nicely put together, well-referenced and easy to read. - SchroCat (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support. Incredibly high quality, quite well sourced throughout in a meticulous fashion, great example of comedy for our readers and editors, alike. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 15:18, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support – After some light copy edits and a review at peer review, I am more than happy to support this articles promotion to FA status.  Cassianto talk 18:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Just want to say thanks to all who have commented thus far for their support and kind words. We hope (talk) 00:35, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review
 * Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
 * Think I've caught them all. We hope (talk) 12:57, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * File:Terry-Thomas_and_Red_Skelton,_1967.jpg: use publication date instead of upload date in template. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:39, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This is now corrected at Commons using May 5, 1967 from the CBS release for the date. We hope (talk) 12:57, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Will be reviewing this one tomorrow.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

done- added title- fixed-
 * Lead
 * "Skelton learned his comedic and pantomime skills beginning at age 10" -this reads a little awkwardly- You might change do "Skelton began developing his comedic and pantomime skills from the age of 10".
 * " A pantomime sketch of how different people ate doughnuts written by Skelton and his wife launched a career for him in vaudeville" -did this sketch have a formal title?
 * "He moved to The Raleigh Cigarettes Program in 1941 where many of his comedy characters were created and had a regularly scheduled radio program until 1957." -do you mean he became host of it?
 * No mention whatsoever of his film work?? You might add a sentence "Skelton made his film debut in 1938 alongside Ginger Rogers and Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. in Alfred Santell's Having Wonderful Time, and he went on to appear in numerous comedy films throughout the 1940s and early 1950s such as  the Dr. Kildare medical dramas, Flight Command (1940), Ship Ahoy (1942), Whistling in Dixie (1942), I Dood It (1943), Bathing Beauty (1944), Ziegfeld Follies (1946), The Yellow Cab Man (1950), Texas Carnival (1951) and The Clown (1953).
 * I've sorted this.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Added more on this We hope (talk) 15:24, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Early years
 * Quite a big jump to "By age 14, Skelton had left school and was already a veteran performer". Do have a little more info on his development as a performer between 10-14? What was he asked to do during his four years on the medicine show?

We have no article on the theatre.
 * Doughnut dunkers
 * No link to Loew's State Theatre?
 * That's a very notable missing article then! I started Loew's State Theatre (New York City), can you link it?♦ Dr. Blofeld

Just did now. We hope (talk) 13:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC) Think there's only one link now.
 * Only link Dougnuts in the first instance, remove the second link.

fixed-
 * Film work
 * Wasn't Having Wonderful Time July 1938 release rather than 1937? You might want to reword to filming in 1937 and released in July 1938.
 * Like with the lead this is really not very well covered. You skip a lot of notable films and then "By 1947, . You need to add a good paragraph I think covering the most notable films in between of the 40s, especially Dr. Kildare, and mention a few of his recurring co stars/directors. Didn't he co star with Eleanor Powell in a few films? Also mention his favourite director S. Sylvan Simon. And then later you need to cover his 50s films. I'd be happy to help work on this section if its OK with you We hope?
 * I've taken care of this now. I'm now happy with the coverage.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

fixed-
 * Divorce
 * "Edna was also the manager of the couple's funds because Skelton spent money too easily. " -reword to "Edna remained the manager of the couple's funds because Skelton spent money too easily. "

fixed-
 * Cast of characters
 * Do boxer and cowboy really need linking?

fixed-
 * Television
 * Do live and costume really need linking too?

fixed-
 * Art
 * Delink showing?

fixed- clarified that he received the award & degree at the same ceremony in 1961.
 * Fraternity
 * "He was the recipient of the Gold Medal of the General Grand Chapter, Royal Arch Masons, for Distinguished Service in the Arts and Sciences." -shouldn't it be "a" recipient, rather than "the"?
 * "He also received an honorary degree from the college." -when was this?


 * Awards
 * "Skelton received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Screen Actors Guild in 1987, and in 1988, he was inducted into the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences' Television Hall of Fame.[246][247][248] He was one of the International Clown Hall of Fame's first inductees in 1989 and was inducted into the National Radio Hall of Fame in 1994." Definitely worth mentioning the Cecille De Mille and a few of these at the end of the lead.

found second Vincennes University and de-linked. Found only the one Pantheon Theatre.
 * Legacy
 * Haven't Vincennes University, HBO and Pantheon Theatre already been linked?


 * Bibliography
 * Why is one in a table and the other not? I think it would look better actually if you removed the table. If anything needs a table it would be the filmography. I'd prefer a separate filmography article for that though, something like Red Skelton, roles and awards or Red Skelton on stage, screen and television. Perhaps would be interested in that?♦  Dr. Blofeld  08:15, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed table. We hope (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Why is Las Vegas linked in notes but not the article? Linked in article. Surprised to see no bibliography. I'd put the few books you use underneath. I'd expected for somebody like Skelton to see a lot more book sources used. Did you look extensively in google books while writing it?
 * Notes and references

Overall this is an excellent piece. I do think though that the film work needs to be improved before this is ready to pass and something done with the filmography, ideally a new article with a table and splitting it.♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Dr. B.-let me start with the easier fixes you suggested. Re: book sources, what you see in bibliography are from Google Books; many of the hits I found for books don't deal directly with his life, but are books on television and radio programs.  Skelton had asked friend and author Gene Fowler to write his biography; when Fowler died in 1960, this project seemed to have been permanently shelved.  There's still information being discovered about Skelton from the collection at Vincennes University.  He had kept just about everything he owned since the age of ten and said in a 1984 interview that he would let someone else go through it.


 * I've used a lot of newspaper stories as references for the article, but they have literally been beaten out of Google News Archive over a period of time. After Google stopped adding to the online newspapers, something was changed in the way one was able to search them; previously you either found what you were looking for or ran out of patience before you ran out of hits. :) Limits were placed on the number of hits and the keyword search became a lot more difficult regarding how to find what you wanted.  More hits are now being allowed, but the keyword search is still difficult-much trial and error to find what you want- and the formerly working timeframe search now gets you a message that there are no news stories in that timeframe.  Two of the three books with extensive information on Skelton (Adir and Hyatt) had the wrong birthdate for his son, Richard. I was able to see the error because a news story about the child's death said he had died ten days before his tenth birthday; the correct date of Richard's birth was confirmed by a transcript from the California Death Index.


 * I'd be happy to have you add (or subtract) anything you see fit! :) Thanks, We hope (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to work on it tomorrow!♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Support Don't bother with adding the notable awards at the end of the lead, I just noticed them in the infobox. I'm happy now with the film coverage. Great work!♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:44, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Dr. B.! Did locate more material on what Skelton did when working in the medicine show I'll be adding, as well as another award. Skelton and Katharine Hepburn received  lifetime achievement American Comedy Awards in 1989. ;) We hope (talk) 13:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done done- done- Removed the TCM ref as the news story covers the event. done- These are no longer at Google News Archive. Newspaper Archive won't let you view the page for Modesto Bee without subscribing. A search of the News and Courier (now Post and Courier) website shows the newspaper's archives there do not go back to 1964. These disappeared from Google News Archive very recently. The Hedda Hopper news story was added to the article in May 2014 and recently were removed from the newspaper archives at Google. Have tried to locate other sources for the page numbers to these but no luck. Titles at ProQuest archiver. Modesto Bee archives here begin with 1994; the Edna Skelton Pound obituary is from 1982. News and Courier not shown but the paper's later title, Post and Courier are. No 1964 archives (the Hedda Hopper column) copies are shown as available here. We hope (talk) 12:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC) done- fixed- fixed- Stopping here for now and will return to this list. We hope (talk) 11:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC) I think this is fixed now. fixed- fixed- fixed- The only copy of the book available at Google Books for viewing is an e-book, which has no page numbers. Other versions of the book (print) can't be previewed or even searched. I left the link in citations because of the issue re: e-books not having page numbers. Please suggest how to handle this issue. The link is the only one available for the book-Google offers no other link to it. I think tinyurl and similar cites are blocked from WP, so that looks to be no option to shorten it. We hope (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC) OK-there's another, newer book by the same author which has this information in it that isn't an e-book. I've switched the citation to that book. We hope (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC) Please point out to me what needs correcting re: short cites & spacing. Thanks, We hope (talk) 14:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Generally the Bibliography section would be for books by Skelton, with a separate Sources section after References for cited sources - could we split the two?
 * Pendergast publisher needs spacing
 * FN4: publisher?
 * Check consistency in italicization - compare for example FNs 8 and 16. Publications should generally be italicized.
 * FN26, 181: page?
 * FN34: need title caps for publication
 * Fn40: why is this full bibliographic citation here when other cites to that source are shortened?
 * Fn51: which paper is this?
 * Be consistent in how you format PPV notes
 * Be consistent in how you format FamilySearch refs
 * FN205: this is formatted as a book, but it's a periodical
 * Fn284: need full citation
 * FN293: formatting here is very strange - are there chapter or section titles that can be used instead of page numbers? Can the URL be truncated further? And why is there a full cite here when this is in your Bibliography list?
 * Be consistent in how you space short cites. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Example: FN124 - "Hyatt, p. 15" but FN255 - "Hyatt, p.157"; generally you seem to use a space between "p." and the page number but not always. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Thought I caught them all but found a few more which I just fixed.  Think they're all fixed now. We hope (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.