Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Reg Saunders/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 17:39, 20 June 2012.

Reg Saunders

 * Nominator(s): AustralianRupert and Ian Rose (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

AustralianRupert and I would like to present our collaboration on the first Aboriginal Australian to be commissioned an officer in the Australian Army. For Rupert, Saunders epitomises the characteristics of a generation of Australians who, forged by the hardships of the Depression and the bush, proved their mettle in the crucible of war. What struck me about his story was how he thrived in the heat of battle, when he was judged purely by his considerable talents as a soldier, but had to deal with entrenched discrimination as soon as he took off his uniform -- and rose above that too. The article recently passed GA and MilHist A-Class reviews, and we believe it's ready for the bronze star. Thanks to Nick-D for various contributions along the way and to our other reviewers at ACR and GAN, Anotherclown, Zawed and Thurgate. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comments by Ling
 * "After sitting a selection board on the Atherton Tablelands". I'm sorry, I don't know what this means. A draft board? Why is the location significant? – Ling.Nut (talk) 16:25, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added some more to clarify. No, it wasn't a draft board. Saunders was a volunteer. It was/is (we still use them) an interview/recruitment process used to determine a person's suitability to be appointed as an officer (as opposed to a soldier in the ranks). The location is not especially significant, it is really only included as context. For example, if it wasn't mentioned that it was on the Atherton Tablelands, a reader might ask if the board sat in New Guinea. Anyway, I've tried to clarify in the article. Does that work? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Forged by War: Australians in Combat and Back Home by Gina Lennox (Mar 1, 2006)
 * "continued to serve with the Department of Aboriginal Affairs..." One of only three aboriginals to do so (1969)? p. 174
 * Nick-D recently amended this to "one of its first", but I guess we could finetune to "one of its first three". Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * reading through this chapter of the book, it seems s though his gov't work does not rec'v the coverage it deserves... – Ling.Nut (talk)
 * I was a little dubious about relying too much on Forbes as it is primarily family reminiscences, but happy to look around for more material on his govt work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As a general comment, for whatever reason little gets written about the experiences of public servants in Australia. Even the heads of major departments rarely receive much coverage. If there isn't a history of the department (which is often a PhD thesis rather than a published book) then you're probably out of luck. Nick-D (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I just did a bit of digging, and all I found were photos of Saunders wearing a suit in 1975 and 1985 . Nick-D (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Tks Nick, yep, I saw those while searching through Picture Australia. On the other hand, per below, Ling did find a useful nugget (pun completely unintended, of course!) in Coombs' story, Obliged to be Difficult, on Saunders' main OAA duties at the beginning. Cheers. Ian Rose (talk) 01:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * wikipedia: "Due to the discriminatory laws in force at the time, Saunders had fewer rights as a citizen" are you sure he was a citizen? Not 'til 1967, right? same page as above, iirc.... oh wait, Fighters from the Fringe: Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders Recall the Second World War by Robert A. Hall (Jan 1, 1995) p. 65-66 says Aborigines were full citizens in Victoria. So they were citizens in some states but not others? – Ling.Nut (talk) 17:38, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct -- Ramsland also states that Aborigines had the rights of citizens in Victoria but not elsewhere. On the other hand "as a citizen" could be confusing so perhaps we should drop that clause and leave as "had fewer rights"? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ashes scattered at lake condah, p. 166 & again several pages later – Ling.Nut (talk) 17:30, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny, I thought we had that already... Done, and tks for pointing out -- it seemed that the location must be of special significance, which based on a quick search turned to out to be the case. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Timothy Ashplant, Graham Dawson, Michael Roper Commemorating War: The Politics of Memory
 * what's an rsl and why was saunders so interested in it? anyhow see pp. 139 & 143 for political activities. – Ling.Nut (talk) 17:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you follow the wikilink for what's the RSL? Anyhow will check on that source. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was asking what's an rsl because it was discussed in source, not article. Article mentions rsl once at bottom, with no wikilink. – Ling.Nut (talk) 06:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, Returned and Services League (RSL) in second-last para? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think when I do CTRL-F, either I unknowingly tap the space bar first, or else something else (?) happens, and I get a space before the search term... so missed (RSL) twice because no space before it... but no matter, it is less than a trivial point... it actually wasn't even a point at all. :-) The quote seems to suggest he struggled against the RSL re aborigine policies, IIRC. – Ling.Nut (talk) 10:01, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added a small clause to clarify what the RSL was/is (it still exists, and COI dec, I am a member). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Obliged to be Difficult Nugget Coombs' Legacy in Indigenous Affairs Tim Rowse, University of Sydney
 * more details of 1 of 3 aborigine representatives t OAA, including useful descr. of duties, p. 72 – Ling.Nut (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, should be worth adding. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Melbourne historical journal: Volumes 27-30; Volumes 27-30
 * I dunno if this is legit: "As Djumbi (Reg Saunders) said in 1978; The Aboriginal speaks in many languages and like all people will disagree on many things material. Today when we speak of Land Rights we do so with one voice, because Land Rights is both spiritual..." a lot of talk of land rights in all these volumes, though in the first one one of his relatives says saunders said land rights weren't enough, need skills. – Ling.Nut (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to respond directly to this one -- did you have a link, Ling? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Tks for review and suggestions. Will come back with more when I get the chance. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Happy to Support – Ling.Nut (talk) 13:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, Ling. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Image review
 * The placement of the Chris image creates a large white block on my screen - any way to avoid this?
 * Heh,I thought the "stack" parameter was supposed to avoid that, as well as place it immediately below the section heading. I mean it's probably not a big deal if it's placed on the left, it's just odd that no-one else has reported the issue.
 * File:Australian_Army_Emblem.JPG: I believe we would need the copyright info for the original emblem as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to confirm, you mean add copyright info for the original Army emblem to this file? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:20, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been looking into this and to be honest, I haven't been able to find anything definitive on the copyright status of that emblem in general. That particular version was adopted in 1991, when the Australian Army had it redesigned (although it was tweaked slightly again in 1995 when the metal was changed). I don't know if that affects anything, though. I'd be happy to lose the image from the article as I don't believe it is vital to the topic, although in the absence of anything definitive against the image, I'd be happy to AGF its copyright status. Of course, if it needs to go, I can live with that. Thanks for the review. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment – Second World War: Minor, but I don't think the last two words of "Australian Rules Football" need the capitalization. That's about it from me. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 15:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you're right -- altered accordingly. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – Wonderful little article that meets all of the FA criteria. Nice work. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 15:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments - Dank (push to talk)
 * I would talk about my edits, except that of course I haven't found any to make so far.
 * "During this time he largely educated himself and in 1937 he went into business with his father and brother, operating their own sawmill in Portland, Victoria, until it was destroyed in a bushfire in 1939.": It's hard to know when to insist on a comma between independent clauses. MOS is silent (I think). Most style guides, including the ones I'm most likely to use, insist on them.  The trend is to drop some of these commas ... but I think you need a PhD in commaology to know when it's okay. What I've been doing so far at FAC is to let them slide if the writers seem to have "good taste" and don't overdo it, but to insist on using them consistently otherwise. That's a little inconsistent, and makes me feel guilty. Thoughts? - Dank (push to talk) 20:03, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, funny you pick that sentence because it's not my favourite either, though not necessarily due lack of commas. I've never liked the expression "during this time", though I admit I can't think of anything better. Also "their own" sawmill is probably redundant because we've just said they're in business together. As to commas, I'd probably use them "parenthetically" around "in 1937". All that would make it: "During this time he largely educated himself and, in 1937, went into business with his father and brother, operating a sawmill in Portland, Victoria, until it was destroyed in a bushfire in 1939." Another option might be to simply make "During this time he largely educated himself" a sentence on its own, since it doesn't relate that closely to going into business. Thoughts? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How about "He worked and furthered his own education until 1937, when he ..."? Do you have an opinion on whether I should ask for commas between independent clauses? Garner's, Chicago, and some FAC reviewers require them ... some BritEng style guides do too, but now I'm out of my depth. - Dank (push to talk) 01:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Dan, although I went to a "grammar school", I learnt precious little theory on speaking and writing and picked up practically all I know from my parents, who were taught the theory... ;-) I'm fine with your suggestion, but want to avoid two "until"s in one sentence. How about "He worked and furthered his own education until 1937, when he went into business with his father and brother operating a sawmill in Portland, Victoria; it was destroyed in a bushfire in 1939." Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure. - Dank (push to talk) 02:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, consider it done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 03:01, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Tks Dan! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I appreciate you taking a look at this, Dan. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My pleasure, I especially enjoy stories of triumph over adversity. - Dank (push to talk) 12:10, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure this is an important point (probably not), but the grammar might be different depending on who legally owned the sawmill: "After three years of working and educating himself in his free time, in 1937 he went into business with his father and brother in a sawmill they jointly owned and operated in Portland, Victoria. Saunders worked with them until the mill was destroyed in a bushfire in 1939." – Ling.Nut (talk) 03:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * G'day, that's certainly a fair point, IMO. To be honest, though, I haven't found anything that indicates who owned the mill, at this stage. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments Support
 * I reviewed this at ACR so I'm comfortable that it is very close to meeting the FA criteria. Some fairly minor points:
 * 1(a) well-written:
 * maybe a word missing here: "was the first Aboriginal Australian to be commissioned an officer...", perhaps "was the first Aboriginal Australian to be commissioned as an officer..."
 * I think what was there was acceptable English but no doubt your version is fine too, so altered accordingly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This sentence seems to only make half that point: "Due to the discriminatory laws in force at the time, Saunders had fewer rights as a citizen than the white Australians he led...", perhaps consider something like: "Ironically, Saunders had fewer rights as a citizen than the white Australians he led due to the discriminatory laws in force at the time." (suggestion only - the reader should understand the inference I admit).
 * Yeah, I'd prefer to think the reader would grasp it, without risking the appearance of editorialising... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Incorrect terminology here: "In February 1951, he took charge of A Company when its commanding officer was wounded...", in the Australian Army a rifle company is commanded by an Officer Commanding (OC), not a CO (they command battalions).
 * Well that's Army for you -- I'm used to Air Force, where OCs command larger formations than COs... ;-) Altered to more generic "commander" because I think "officer commanding" may puzzle the uninitiated and even it we were to link it, I see the old OC article now redirects to commanding officer, which doesn't help... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This seems awkward to me: "He was also involved in a veterans organisation, the Returned and Services League (RSL), though he fell out with leaders Alf Garland and Bruce Ruxton over Garland's...", perhaps consider: "He was also involved in the Returned and Services League (RSL), a a veterans organisation, though he fell out with leaders Alf Garland and Bruce Ruxton over Garland's..." (suggestion only - I know this has been the product of other reviewers comments so if you want to keep it that way I'm happy)
 * I'm happy with your version if no-one else complains... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Lake Condah, Victoria should be wikilinked at first instance (it is currently linked in the "Later life" section, but mentioned in "Early life").
 * Oops, tks for spotting that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1(b) comprehensive:
 * "Saunders' mother died in 1924 from complications caused by pneumonia while giving birth to her third child, a girl, who also died...", do we know his mother's name?
 * I think someone asked at ACR and we didn't have the info, but it's possible that was before the last source or two came our way -- will see. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1(c) well-researched: no issues here - I've spot checked the fol refs:
 * 1: "Captain Reginald Walter (Reg) Saunders, MBE". Australian War Memorial. Retrieved 21 July 2009" - citations checks out, no issues with close paraphrase
 * 4: ""Walter Christopher George Saunders". The AIF Project. Australian Defence Force Academy. Retrieved 12 May 2012." - citation checks out, no issues with close paraphrase
 * 10:"Captain Reginald Saunders". Australian Broadcasting Corporation, South West Victoria. Retrieved 21 July 2009." - citations check out, no issues with close paraphrase
 * 22: "Battle of 42nd Street". Australian War Memorial. Retrieved 13 April 2012." - citation checks out, no issues with close paraphrase
 * 35: "Reginald Walter Saunders, MBE (1920–1990)". Fifty Australians. Australian War Memorial. Retrieved 18 May 2012." - citations check out, no issues with close paraphrase
 * 60: "Flanagan, Martin (25 April 1989). "We can make peace, says an old warrior". The Age: p. 9. Retrieved 28 May 2012." - citation checks out, no issues with close paraphase
 * 1(d) neutral: no issues here - article seems to present subject in a balanced manner.
 * 1(e) stable: no issues here - all recent changes appear to be constructive
 * 2(a) a lead: no issues here - lead is a little short but summarises all key points
 * 2(b) appropriate structure: yes
 * 2(c) consistent citations: yes
 * 3.Media - images look fine to me but I'm not an expert so I'll leave this up to others
 * 4.Length - article is succint and covers all key points. Anotherclown (talk) 09:50, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Many tks, AC -- the spotcheck is especially welcome, it seems like a while since an article I was involved in had one... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Too easy, adding my support now. Anotherclown (talk) 13:33, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.