Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Richard Williams (RAAF officer)


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 23:43, 29 November 2008.

Richard Williams (RAAF officer)

 * Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured status because, guess what, I think it fits the bill, telling the story of the guy considered most responsible for the foundation - and the survival in its early years - of the Royal Australian Air Force. Currently rated A-Class on three projects, prior to which it had a peer review. Believe all comments from those reviews have been actioned. Since then I've added additional info but the basic format is unchanged. There is one red link in the article which will be gone when I've put the finishing touches on a new article in the next few days. Any and all comments welcome. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Image review
 * Image concerns addressed. Awadewit (talk) 04:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully we can straighten out these issues rather quickly. Awadewit (talk) 00:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:WilliamsPacificIslands.gif - Could we get a more specific link to the source of this image?
 * Heh, yes, our friends at the Defence/RAAF web site have made a few changes to things lately - updated the link now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:A04565Williams.jpg - Are you sure this image was taken before 1 January 1955? Could it have been taken during 1955?
 * Yes, it could have been taken during 1955, but then I think criterion E of PD-Australia would apply. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Richard Williams.jpg - I feel uneasy making any pronouncements about this image. It seems to me that the email correspondence would need to go through OTRS rather than just be posted here. I don't think we can accept "Wikipedia only" publication rights (see Example requests for permission) and the fair use rationale here would not work, since there are free images of this person.
 * Yup, I actually held up nominating this article for FAC while I tried sorting this one, since I considered the image important enough to justify some effort. It was originally uploaded as PD but was undated and, looking at him, I thought it had to be more recent than 50 years ago. In fact, I suspect it was taken around 1971 as part of the RAAF's Jubilee celebrations, though neither the RAAF webmaster nor Defence Copyright have been able to date it for me. Therefore I asked permission to use it, as you see - I wasn't aware of WP:OTRS by the way. As far as the fair use thing goes, I wasn't entirely happy with it either, but then I think our policy here is a little odd. To me, logically, if you have permission to use an image, you shouldn't need a fair use assertion. Similarly, if you're making a legitimate fair use claim, you shouldn't need permission. However I decided to go ahead and do it according to other examples I've seen since, while I agree that there are free images of Williams, there are none at this stage of his life, with all his regalia, etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you show me somewhere onsite where it says these sorts of permissions, which are limited to Wikipedia, are acceptable? I was under the impression that we could not accept such permissions. I was also under the impression that we could not just post such permissions ourselves - I thought we had to have them verified through OTRS (otherwise we could just make them up). The fair use claim here is extremely weak, so let's just focus on sorting out the permission bit. Awadewit (talk) 19:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Discussion, with link to an example, here. Any other advice on the best way to get this image compliant more than welcome, also happy to put the permission through OTRS, if that's the next thing to do. That said, I don't intend to allow this one to hold up the FAC process so if we can't get a reasonably speedy resolution then I'll remove it and substitute something else - won't be as appropriate but will be PD - until or unless we can sort this one. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just getting a userpage. I really would suggest OTRS. That seems the safest route to me. Awadewit (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I've checked with someone more knowledgeable than myself. Apparently, OTRS won't make a difference here. Since the fair use rationale can't be supported (there are free images of this person available), we need to delete the image. Awadewit (talk) 02:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said earlier, I agree fair use doesn't logically apply here because we have at least one decent PD portrait of the subject, I only included a FUR because the Wikipedia-only permission I obtained apparently requires it. If I felt fair use was justified, I wouldn't have bothered obtaining permission. Similarly, the permission should logically negate the need for a fair use claim. Anyway, I don't want this to bog down the FAC, it appears you're saying that only a free release would satisfy the permission requirement so I'll pursue that with the owner and in the meantime will remove this image from the article and substitute another PD image. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm striking this since it has been removed from the article. Awadewit (talk) 04:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * All of the AWM images have little logos and website addresses along the bottom of the images. I would suggest removing these from the images.
 * Those watermarks don't really fuss me but I'm happy to remove; I know we've done that for other AWM images. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Tks for your comments, and tweaks to some of the images. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments Support Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not terrifically importaint, as the award wasn't made, but it might be worth mentioning that he was recommended for a Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1918. (See here)
 * Have to admit I'm not too keen on adding it, mainly because I can hardly read the source...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, I was thinking the same thing ... I gave up on trying to read it! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Upon establishment of the Australian Air Board on 9 November 1920, Williams and his fellow AAC officers dropped their army ranks in favour of those based on the Royal Air Force, which had come into being two years earlier." - this sentence is slightly confusing, as in a way it implies the RAF was established in 1918 or the ranks were. I know the RAF was established in 1918, but was not their ranking system developed in 1919 or 1920? If so, this needs to be clarified.
 * I might just drop "which had come into being two years earlier" to keep it simple. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Williams spent much of 1923 in England, attending the British Army Staff College in Camberley and RAF Staff College, Andover, followed by further study in Canada and the United States the following year. Goble acted as Chief of the Air Staff in his absence." - Wasn't Goble appointed CAS during this time, not just acting?
 * I suspect I used "acted" because I'd run out of similar words in the vicinity but will look at something else. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Bryce, done those last two. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My only (minor) concerns have been addressed, so I'm happy to support. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support  YellowMonkey  ( click here to choose Australia's next top model ) 03:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support This meets all the criteria. On the topic of the disputed image, I discussed this with Ian when he first contacted the RAAF for permission to use it, and don't see any problem with including it. The RAAF has granted permission for its use and it adds value to the article by showing Williams in the uniform of a senior and highly decorated officer. Nick-D (talk) 03:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The permission granted by the RAAF is inadequate - they must grant a GFDL or CC license of some sort and one of these must be granted through OTRS. Awadewit (talk) 04:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Dabs, please fix the dab links identified in the dabfinder in the tool box. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.