Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roar (film)/archive1

Roar (film)

 * Nominator(s): NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 20:37, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Filmways...er...Drafthouse films presents: Roar!

This is one of those films that has a backstory more entertaining to listen to than actually watching it: actress Tippi Hedren and her husband Noel Marshall set out to make a film about lions, what follows is 11 years of "beastly terror". Around 70 (100 if you ask Noel's son) members of cast and crew were injured while acting/working in the proximity of animals. Then, a flood destroys their set and surrounding compound, further delaying production. On top of all that, it doesn't get released in the U.S. and only makes back $2 million.

I've been working on this article for well over a year; it was reviewed and listed as a good article, peer-reviewed by a FA mentor, and copy-edited two times. And even though this is my first Featured Article submission, I'll do my best to fix any issues spotted. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 20:37, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Fowler&fowler
Reserving a slot here. As inveterate animal lovers, my family and I are big fans of Tippi Hedren. I have my plate full right now, but I've put you on my user page to-do list, and will make some initial comments here in a day or two. That's a promise. :) Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Roar's story follows Hank, a wildlife preservationist who lives with lions, tigers, and other big cats in Africa." (I understand this is a movie, but as there are no wild tigers in Africa, Hank must have some kind of preserve or sanctuary for tame big cats.  The "preservationist" part throws me off, as the term is more commonly applied to wildlife.  Is this made clear in the sources? The Plot says, "American doctor and wildlife preservationist Hank (Noel Marshall) lives in Tanzania with big cats, to study their behavior."  That doesn't clarify either.)  I did see the movie but am blanking out.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  05:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a really hard part to clarify, and is a big part that critics griped about in the reviews: Hank's occupation was never made very clear in the film. The dialogue only tells us he's studying big cats (according to Mativo, in their natural habitat or otherwise, which is an attempt to explain tigers in Africa). Drafthouse Films, the company who re-released Roar, states in an article that he is a preservationist...HOWEVER, on the back of the Blu-ray release, he is referred to as a doctor and "outspoken naturalist". The cats aren't tamed at all I should mention, and I don't think his ranch is much of a "sanctuary", so I'll add mention that his ranch is a preserve as well. Also, going off just information given to us in the beginning of the film, Hank is also seen bandaging wounds and helping a native tribe (while wearing a medical coat of sorts), but that's the only time it's introduced and or used in the film. This is why I included the 'doctor' part, so should it be removed then? -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 14:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: You need to think about presenting the story in a way that doesn't presuppose any knowledge of the story. So you had, "His family attempts to visit him." That is too much information, as I have no idea of the confusion at the airport.  Y has wisely taken it out. But at the same time, the information has to be enough and consistent.  So, when you say, "are accidentally left with a number of animals they fear," which Y. has again fixed, there is both too much information (accidentally) and not enough or vague (left), or redundant (they fear). You can simply say, "they find themselves unattended with some of these animals." At this point, I'm expecting something more, how the plot takes off from there, not in great detail, but some clue, so I'm thrown off by the naming the names.  You should go through the article looking for such issues.  The grammar I can fix easily; the coherence I have to work harder.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * How does this sound then? Roar's story follows Hank, a wildlife conservationist who lives on a nature preserve in Africa with lions, tigers, and other big cats. When his family visits him, they are instead confronted by the group of animals. Please tell me if this is better?
 * Nice. Much better.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, you need to clarify (which again Y has flagged in his edit summary) whether he is a conservationist (preservationist does mean the same, but is less commonly used) or a behaviourist. (He can be both.) I mean lions and tigers are apex predators; even in India, the only place where they both exist in the wild, their habitats don't intersect.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:20, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, it's all over the place and was the subject of criticism from critics. Does "naturalist" sound better according to the DVD synopsis? (see above)
 * On balance "naturalist" is better. No source says, "animal behaviorist?" Are we bound literally by the sources? Can't make a common-sense interpretation?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I looked at Tippi Hedren's memoir, and she states that he's a zoologist "studying a collection of big cats under one roof"! My god people, make a decision!! XD. How does zoologist sound?
 * Naturalist is probably better; zoologist is too preciose. Let's not worry about the speciality for now, but please file away, "studying a collection of big cats under one roof." That is potentially useful info.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:19, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Done! -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 00:23, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I think I've fixed all of the issues, along with other prose problems. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 22:00, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. I just took at a look at the lead. There are still some coherence and organization issues.  Let me go ahead and make an edit.  Will post here when done.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Let me know of other issues so I can address them. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 23:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I've left two versions there. The second is more precise.  I'm strapped for time right now but will take another look tomorrow.  Let me know what you think.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Filming actually started in 1976, not '74. Otherwise, everything looks pretty good; I wasn't sure before if mention of the attacks should have been put in the last paragraph or not. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 00:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Oppose by Nick-D
I don't think that this article's prose meets FA standards at present. As some examples:
 * The first sentence of the lead is rather complex and doesn't really leave readers wanting to continue with the article
 * I've tried to fix this by looking at another recently featured article, The Thing, which moves the cast to the end of the paragraph, allowing the film's story some leeway.


 * "When his family attempts to visit him, they are accidentally left alone with a number of animals that they fear." - is the word "alone" needed here?
 * Removed


 * "Hedren and Marshall learned about endangered wildlife in Africa while Hedren was filming Satan's Harvest in Mozambique, and they decided to make a film in response" - in response to what? I presume that they became aware of a need for more action to protect endangered wildlife or similar?
 * Added context: poaching was what they wanted to respond to.


 * "Hedren, Marshall, and their family lived with a number of big cats in their California homes." - the context here is unclear
 * I hope this is what you mean: By suggestion from animal experts, Hedren, Marshall, and their family lived with a number of big cats in their California homes. It was a professional trainer who suggested they get to know the animals. Let me know if I need more info or if this is okay?


 * "Although Roar's message (to protect African wildlife) and animal interactions were praised, its plot, story, inconsistent tone, dialogue, and editing were criticized." - passive voice (who was making these comments? Professional critics?)
 * Yes, it was critics who made these remarks.


 * The formatting in the Cast section is a bit odd. Why is most of this content in horizontal dot points?
 * Fixed


 * "As the script developed with frequent changes, some of the lions were later credited as writers." - Which lions are being referred to here, and why were they credited? Was this a joke, or an acknowledgement of how they influenced the plot?
 * No joke, the animals did what they wanted to on set so they were credited as both writers and actors. It doesn't state the lions by name, but it lists some "incidents". I tried adding more context, hope it doesn't sound loopy: The script developed with frequent changes but allowed the animals to improvise moments, such as playing with the family's boat or riding a skateboard. This led some of the lions to be credited as writers.


 * The sentence starting with "Marshall and Hedren began illegally housing," is rather complex
 * Do you mean it has no explanation? I've tried to fix it up here: Marshall and Hedren began illegally keeping young lions that they had acquired from zoos and circuses, as they did not have permission from authorities beforehand to house them.


 * What's an "African-style house"? There's a considerable diversity of architecture styles in Africa.
 * This is referring to inspiration or the main idea behind the blueprint. How does [...] a two-storey house inspired by African architecture. sound?
 * What's "African architecture"? It's a big and diverse continent with very different styles of architecture. Nick-D (talk) 23:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * "Some of the big cats also became plagued with airborne, feline-related illnesses, which resulted in the death of 14 lions and tigers." - did this lead to animal welfare authorities responding?
 * I checked the book again. No mention of authorities, just that they called in UCLA and UC Davis experts who determined it was airborne and unpreventable (due to no vaccine against it) if it happened again.


 * "Due to the large number of untrained animals on set, there were a reported 48 injuries within the two years since filming started" - the "since" here is confusing
 * Re-worded: [...] there were a reported 48 injuries within the two years of filming.


 * "70 members have been injured during the production of Roar" - the tense here is also wrong. Nick-D (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed by another user


 * Page numbers are needed for each of the references in current refs 7, 11 and 15 (all books) - you can't just point readers at the entire book and hope they find the right page, and this fails WP:V Nick-D (talk) 05:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed the format to include page numbers, instead of using the "rp" format included outside of the citation. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 01:01, 14 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Huh, "doesn't really leave readers wanting to continue with the article?" Are you a spokesman for readers or are you speaking for yourself?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What are you hoping to achieve here? Nick-D (talk) 04:46, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That you speak logically.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Now I see why people were recently complaining about you trolling FACs. Give it up. Nick-D (talk) 05:08, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Nick is just giving out an example on how lengthy and bloated the sentence was and how it needed trimming...it's not an insult to my work on the article, it was meant to be taken as a critique.
 * Apologies and, I stayed up too late.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I addressed a few of your issues here Nick. I aim to fix the rest tomorrow as I need sleep. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 05:09, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have tackled the issues you've pointed out so far. Please look over them and tell me if I've addressed them adequately. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 03:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

From scanning the sections of the article I didn't cover, they're full of the same problems around prose and there are also issues with gaps and duplication of material (for instance, the coverage of how the film was released is confusing and some material is repeated). I'm afraid I'm still an oppose. Nick-D (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thanks for your review anyway; it really helps with the state of the article. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 23:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Image Review - Shearonink

 * The 4 images lack meaningful alt-text.
 * The Jan de Bont image lacks a caption at Commons. Also, the picture seems to be from 1973...there isn't anything available that's more recent? Shearonink (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Added alt text. Replaced image and added description from a 1975 picture (sorry, that's the latest picture on Wikimedia Commons). -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 18:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the images pass muster. Inclined to support but will wait for word on the other FA criteria. Shearonink (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
Hi, I was looking forward to recusing coord duties and reviewing this myself but the coord stuff has to take precedence now. As it is I can't see consensus to promote being achieved anytime soon, and the review has been open well over six weeks, so I'm going to archive. If you can seek out an editor experienced in film articles at FA level it would be good to get their input prior to another nomination in due course. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)