Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Robert Schumann/archive1

Robert Schumann

 * Nominator(s):  Tim riley  talk   09:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This is almost certainly the first time there have been two articles on composers up for FAC (Igor Stravinsky is already here). I'm venturing outside my comfort zone with Schumann. With one exception – Rossini – the previous nineteen composer FAs I've nominated or co-nominated have been French or English, and though I can't claim to be an expert on French or English music, still less am I expert on German music: the input at the peer review from Ssilvers, Aza24, SchroCat, MyCatIsAChonk, UndercoverClassicist, KJP1 and Iadmc has been of inestimable value and I am profoundly grateful. Suggestions for further improvement – prose, proportion, balance, sourcing and anything else – will be most welcome.  Tim riley  talk   09:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Iadmc

 * Support A lot of work has been done recently and the article is ready for being featured, in my opinion. All the FA criteria are fulfilled and the article is especially well sourced and written.— Iadmc  ♫ talk  09:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this support, Iadmc, and for your input at PR. I don't think our paths had crossed until a week or so ago, and I hope they will cross again.  Tim riley  talk   10:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed! See you around — Iadmc  ♫ talk  10:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thought Shouldn't the infobox link to his List of Works?— Iadmc  ♫ talk  16:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that's a rotten trick to play on our poor readers. An info-box is meant to sum up the key points within an article, and not to take the poor souls off to some other article altogether.  Tim riley  talk   17:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Since it is another article altogether and the alternative is to list some works according to some editor's opinion, why not? We link some places and people who have articles in the info box: Zwickau, Bonn, and Clara Schumann. The List is less likely to keep them from the main article. — Iadmc  ♫ talk  18:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We link to the list from the top of the Works section. No need to do it twice.  Tim riley  talk   18:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We link Zwickau, Bonn, and Clara Schumann in the lead. Should we unlink them in the infobox? Why? — Iadmc  ♫ talk  18:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But they are all mentioned in the article, and the list isn't. Personally I despise info-boxes for composers, which me judice serve no useful purpose, but this one was in situ when I began my overhaul and it seemed presumptuous to remove it.  Tim riley  talk   18:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This edit was made on the sly. Removed List of works and signature with no explanation except "additional info and refs; rem uncited material". This needs further discussion. I won't replace them unless others agree I should. The signature is better in the info box, imo. And yes: those items are mentioned already so why link them? This is a way to remove the box, I fear, by rotting it —  Iadmc  ♫ talk  17:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)


 * His signature has in fact vanished — Iadmc  ♫ talk  17:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no case for putting a composer's signature in an info-box. The box is there to sum up what is in the article. An autograph does no such thing.  Tim riley  talk   18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But it should be somewhere in the article if it exists? — Iadmc  ♫ talk  18:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * A case could be made, I suppose, for including it elsewhere in the article, but I’ve never seen the point, personally. It doesn’t help explain the individual or aid the reader in any way. It is, however, something tangibly connected to the composer though.I’m going to pull you up on the rather uncivil accusation that Tim did something “on the sly”. He did a major rewrite that cut unsourced material and added quality content. That’s not ‘on the sky’, and it leaves an unpleasant taste. You should consider striking that rather contemptible part of your comment. SchroCat (talk) 18:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

SchroCat (talk) 18:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. Sorry Tim.— Iadmc  ♫ talk  18:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that Tim's rewrite is remarkable, in fact. I just had some concerns to air and did so in an uncivil manner — Iadmc  ♫ talk  18:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, both. I confess I found the phrase "on the sly" rather hurtful. As far as I can recall (I may be mistaken) the autograph is not reproduced in any of the biographies about Schumann I've studied for this overhaul. If it isn't in the books it seems perverse to make room for it in a 7,000-word article. I had to drop some excellent images that were crammed into the then existing version: we have to use our limited space prudently. One wise colleague commented that seeing the subject's handwriting might possibly be illuminating in an article about a visual artist, but tells one nothing about the subject in an article about a musician.  Tim riley  talk   18:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see the point. Ignore me, then! I'll look through the article again soon to see what needs fixing or goes against MOS etc. A glance says it's pretty good, though — Iadmc  ♫ talk  19:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

MyCat

 * - is this comma needed?
 * Yes indeed. They ran in tandem with each other, rather than with poems etc. I could make the comma a dash if you think it would make the point more clearly.  Tim riley  talk   11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And now done.  Tim riley  talk   12:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Wl jurisprudence and Roman law and ecclesiastical law (if that is what the latter two are referring to)
 * It is. Good idea. Done.  Tim riley  talk   11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Somewhere I saw "homeopathy" be spelled "homoeopathy" in BrE, but I'm hardly one to correct BrE spellings
 * Both are correct. The OED actually gives precedence to the longer variant, though I can't remember ever seeing it used anywhere. The Times, the BBC, The Guardian and the current edition of Fowler all spell the word as "homeopathy".  Tim riley  talk   11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * - I know what impecunious and adopted are saying, but what purpose does "illegitimate" serve here? Even is she was being dishonest, perhaps that's a better word, as I see "illegitimate" as connecting to "adopted" here.
 * Being born out of wedlock carried a considerable stigma in those days. The source uses all three adjectives.  Tim riley  talk   11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps to make the point that it is a quote? —  Iadmc  ♫ talk  12:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it's all right. I'll leave it as it is for now and wait to see if anyone else comments.  Tim riley  talk   12:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Is there a particular reason the web citations are cited with text as opposed to using the full templates?
 * Just what I've always done. Works fine and nobody seems to object.

That's all I got- excellent work here! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the above, and for your input at PR. My regards to you and Igor.  Tim riley  talk   11:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The citation style is perfectly acceptable per WP:CITE — Iadmc  ♫ talk  12:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support then- wonderful job MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your support here and for your earlier input.  Tim riley  talk   06:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Support from UC
Not sure I'll have many more nits to pick after the PR, but will drop in here to give it a go when I can. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Doing my best to find some. Apologies if I'm re-raising anything from PR:
 * : I am chewing on the capital U here: my thinking is that it's probably not right, since it isn't strictly part of a proper noun any more (that is, there's no proper noun . Advise.
 * OK. Done.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't italicise alter egos, as it's English (ego doesn't really have a plural in Latin, but it wouldn't be egos if it did)
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk   18:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Link chamber music in lead?
 * OK. Done.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : as the relative clause doesn't make any sense until we have the last bit, this would perhaps be better reordered to put the marriage first, then the objection second.
 * This was originally as you suggest, but was changed at the request of a peer reviewer.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Very well; it would be uncollegial to pull you in the opposite direction. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : hyphenate always-precarious as a compound modifier? MoS makes an exception for -ly compounds, but this isn't one.
 * OK.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : hyphenate middle-class as above. I might suggest using affluent in the lead to replace comfortable: I'm mindful that in some parts of the world, "middle-class" means "ordinary" rather than "petite-bourgeoise".
 * Changed.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : I know this is couched as "in the view of", but it's still fundamentally unverifiable (how can we measure the interesting-ness of someone's personality) and, frankly, a bit infra dig for us to be making what reads as a quite sneery comment at Ernestine's expense. The word "realised" could perhaps be reworked into more of a statement of opinion: it's one thing to say that he found her less interesting, it's another to say that she objectively was uninteresting.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : to me, abortive means short-lived, which I'm not sure is appropriate if it lasted for several years. "Failed", "unsuccessful" vel sim?
 * The source uses the term "abortive" but I wondered about it and am inclined to agree with you. Changed.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : I believe that under the MoS, if we italicise a non-English quote, we don't then use quote marks.
 * Very possibly, but I'll both italicise and quote here unless absolutely forced not to. It seems to me unhelpful to the reader not to do both.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * To me, doing both is redundant, but I can see the argument. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : do we know her name?
 * We do, but I don't propose to give the names of all his children. I don't think it is of value to the reader.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * de gustibus, assuming they're not remotely notable in themselves. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * : the first Op. should have a dot to mark the abbreviation, I think.
 * So it should. Done.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : comma after (1851).
 * Hmm, but done.  Tim riley  talk   18:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : I know I'm generally more comma-happy than you, but I think we really need one after friend here.
 * I don't think so. That would make Joachim their only mutual friend (which he may have been, but I don't know.) It's the difference between "my brother, John" and "my brother John".
 * Very well, but then at least we want something like "their mutual friend Joseph Joachim, the violinist". There's a more elegant and technical way of putting this, but the four-word noun phrase is just too "heavy" to stand in this position without some sort of punctuation to give structure to the sentence. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * To avoid handbags at dawn I've redrawn.  Tim riley  talk   19:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Handbag holstered. UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 20:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * In "Works", Romantic era is linked on second mention, which seems odd.
 * A hangover from the régime that forbade links from within quotations. Old habits die hard. Now linked at first instance.  Tim riley  talk   18:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * : I expected these links to go to Schumann's works, not to e.g. Shakespeare's. To reduce the easter egg factor, suggest "Schiller's The Bride of Messina, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, etc.
 * OK. Done. What think you of Requiem Mass in the opera and choral section, which worried me for similar reasons?  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that's fine: if we were linking to the specific work, I'd expect the linktext to cover the "a", which it doesn't. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 20:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * : phrases like this are discouraged: on certain screens (particularly mobile), the clips may not be to the right of the text. Personally, I'd simply cut this altogether, as the caption to those clips makes clear what they are.
 * Pruned.  Tim riley  talk   18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

All very minor: I doubt they'll take you very long at all. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 16:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks UC. Your eagle eye is, as ever, greatly valued.  Tim riley  talk   20:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

SchroCat

 * Support. I was happy at PR, but the article has been strengthened since. - SchroCat (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, SchroCat, for support here and input at PR.  Tim riley  talk   15:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ssilvers
The 4th paragraph of the LEAD section says: "...but he was not a good conductor and had to resign after three years." At first glance, one would think this meant that his technical conducting skills were poor.

However, the problem seems to have been social skills, not technique. The body of the article says "...he accepted a post as director of music at Düsseldorf in April 1850. Hall comments that in retrospect it can be seen that Schumann was fundamentally unsuited for the post. In Hall's view, Schumann's diffidence in social situations, allied to mental instability, "ensured that initially warm relations with local musicians gradually deteriorated to the point where his removal became a necessity in 1853".

The LEAD (not lied) ought to be harmonised with the text below. I suggest "...but his shyness and mental instability made it difficult for him to work with other/orchestra musicians, and he had to resign after three years." I am so sorry that I do not have time to review this thoroughly. Good luck! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That will do nicely. Thank you, Ss.  Tim riley  talk   19:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I added a sentence to the Lead about the period 1843-1849. One other question about the Lead, where it says "The marriage was followed by...." Should it be "wedding" instead of "marriage", as the marriage was ongoing? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Good question! Not sure the two terms don't overlap rather a lot (The Marriage of Figaro is about his approaching wedding day rather than his married life with Susanna) but point taken, and I'll change.  Tim riley  talk   19:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Image review by Generalissima
Seems pretty good to me, besides that one image realignment; adding the licensing that lets the other files be transferred to commons would be nice, but I don't think is actually pertinent to the article itself per FA criteria. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Robert Schumann 1839.jpg: Public domain.
 * File:Schumannhaus ALT.JPG: Public domain.
 * File:Portrait of A Young Age of Robert Schumann.png: Public domain - the photo is uploaded as an "own work", but that might refer to the physical picture of the photo including the frame?
 * File:Schumann-Abegg-theme.jpg: Public domain, but can be copied over to commons as it is out of copyright outside in its source country as well.
 * File:Neue-Zeitschrift-fur-Musik.jpg: Public domain.
 * File:Clara-Wieck-1832-signed-illegible.png: Public domain.
 * File:Clara und Robert Schumann Relief MIM.jpg: Released into public domain on upload.
 * File:Robert u Clara Schumann 1847.jpg: Public domain.
 * File:Schumann-photo1850.jpg: Public domain.
 * File:Du Ring am meinem Finger.jpg: Public domain (Like above, can be transferred onto commons.)
 * File:Rhenish-opening-score.jpg (Like above.)
 * File:Schumann-Genoveva-score.jpg (Like above.)
 * File:Robert-Schumann-Haus.JPG: CC-BY-SA 2.0
 * I am unsure if this is part of the image review, but all the music files are also good to use, as they are CC licensed.
 * Images have appropriate alt-text.
 * I would move the 1847 Robert and Clara Schumann picture to the right, as per MOS:IMAGELOC.
 * No sandwiching issues as I can see.
 * Generalissima, thank you for this thorough and encouraging review. I'm a bit reluctant to move the 1847 image to the right hand of the page: having it flush left varies the layout a bit, I feel. I'm indebted to you for your review.  Tim riley  talk   19:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just realized that the "Clara Wieck in 1832" image could be left-aligned, as she appears to be facing right. Is there a way to move those around to keep the layout interesting? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perfectly happy for you or anyone else to rejig the images if you think they'd be improved thereby.  Tim riley  talk   19:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay! Anyhow, since it's essentially an optional element of the MOS as it pertains to image, I'm happy to Support on image review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Source review
To follow.... - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Quality: All sources are both reliable and of high quality. Subject specific searches do not show any major or concerning gaps in the sources used.
 * Formatting:
 * For most of the chapter titles you use sentence case, but Larkin's "The 'War' of the Romantics" doesn't.
 * It's like "the Wars of the Roses" - treated as a phrase consisting of a couple of proper nouns. I think it's got to keep the source's capitalisation here.  Tim riley  talk   18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There are a few different formats for ISBNs which should be made consistent.
 * How on earth did I manage to do that! Now duly hyphenated.  Tim riley  talk   18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * FN142 needs a full stop after pp.
 * Indeed so. Done.  Tim riley  talk   18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * FN 56: Browne Conor. "Robert Schumann's Das Paradies und die Peri and its early Performances": why is "early" lower case and "Performances" capitalised?
 * I was following the source. It's a one-off web page rather than a book chapter, but I don't think there's any harm in taking the minor liberty of lower-casing "performances", and have now done so.  Tim riley  talk   18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

That's the lot. - SchroCat (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your keen-eyed review, SchroCat. I'm much obliged.  Tim riley  talk   18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Pass for the source review. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan
Hi, my comments:
 * I'm not quite sure about this, but wouldn't including August Schumann in the infobox be prudent?
 * He's not really notable, I think. If it were not for Robert nobody would have heard of him.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "musical historian": wouldn't "music historian" be better?
 * This may be an Engvar thing: cf. BrE "musical director" and AmE "music director"


 * "living composers": just "living composer", since we have only one here?
 * But that wouldn't make grammatical sense.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Translate Die Zauberflöte as done for other German language words?
 * Good idea. Done.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "After a year in Leipzig": add a comma after?
 * More Engvar. In the King's English we don't automatically put commas after introductory dates. If they serve a useful function in clarifying the meaning fine (e.g. "On meeting Joyce, Beckett was impressed", to save the reader wondering momentarily who Joyce Beckett was). But they are usually superfluous.   Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Link to international law as done for the other branches?
 * I considered this, but I'm not sure our article on international law is about quite the subject Schumann studied. The general import is clear enough in any case, I think.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Do any authors discuss why Schumann named his two selfs Florestan and Eusebius? Was the first based on the character in Fidelio by Beethoven, and the second one on Greek bishop?
 * This is covered in the footnote. As it is all conjectural, it is, as discussed at the peer review, better footnoted than in the main text.


 * Link to Ferdinand Schubert?
 * Excellent suggestion. I didn't realise he had an article. Never heard of him, truth to tell, before I started reading up for the revision of the article. Done.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "toured to": just "toured"?
 * Without the preposition it reads as though they did tours of those cities rather than touring from one to the other.


 * Translate Waldszenen?
 * Good idea. Done.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Link to Goethe on first use instead of second?
 * Yes, good. Done. I'd forgotten he wasn't mentioned alongside Schiller at the first mention of the latter.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Translate Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung?
 * It's translated earlier in the text.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * We're missing commas at a lot of places. Would it be ok with you if I added those myself?
 * No it wouldn't: we don't need an avalanche of unnecessary AmE-style commas.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Remove the bracket after Hermann and Dorothea?
 * Yes. This is a hangover from an earlier suggested revision (see previous comments). Done.


 * Link to The Record Guide?
 * Already linked at earlier mention.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Link to Toby Saks in the Andante piece?
 * No objection, but I'm not sure that's usual in play-box legends.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Link to Wagner and arias in the Opera subsection?
 * We have a link to Wagner earlier. I don't think anyone reading an article about Schumann would benefit from a link to "aria", though I don't strongly object.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "most of the minor ones": do we have the exact numbers?
 * No. We can't know the exact number because, as mentioned in the text, Clara and Brahms suppressed some of the late works.


 * Link to Edvard Grieg?
 * Linked earlier.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * We mention Faure and Messager's pilgrimage to Schumann's tomb, but haven't specified where it is.
 * Very good point. Added.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Is the link to Joan Chissell in the Legacy subsection necessary? We have linked to her quite a few times already. Also, was this prize at the Royal College of Music endowed by her? If so, then consider mentioning that?
 * It was created in her memory.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Why have you not used sfn and sfnm tags instead of plain ref tags? Is there no consensus to do so on the talk page, or have you not opened a proposal to do so yet?
 * Refs #18, #26, #30, #53, #56, #99, #110, #126, #131, #132, #133, #138, #144, #145, #146, #147, #149, #160, #165-169: Convert to cite web?
 * Refs #48 and #49: Convert to {Cite AV media notes}?
 * Ref #110: Consider converting to sfnm and cite web refs.
 * Ref #110: Convert to Cite AV media?
 * In the biblio, you shouldn't have to use the subscription required template. I believe URL access level or access level parameters will do the job just fine.
 * In the biblio, link to Anthony Peattie.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Add the trans-title values for Liliencron 1875 and Maintz 1995.
 * In Marston 2007, there seems to be an error in the first name.
 * Typo amended.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

That is all from me. The lead and body are very well written and I can strong support it. But the source formatting is at strong oppose level, you should fix it as soon as possible. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have taken, jointly or on my own, 20 articles on composers to FA, and most of them have used the referencing format used here. You will see, above, the comment from another reviewer: "The citation style is perfectly acceptable per WP:CITE". It is not in the slightest need of "fixing". You may notice that the source review, above, is a pass.  Tim riley  talk   14:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Wolverine
I'll have some comments in a few hours. Wolverine XI  ( talk to me ) 07:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Should be from 1829 on
 * It is correct as it is.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Should be "so he concentrated on composition."
 * "So" is not normally used as a conjunction in formal British English.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Add comma after daughter and Clara
 * I'm not sure she was his only daughter (I think she was, but cannot be certain from the sources) and the comma would mean that she was.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm not understanding "first" here
 * It means he wrote songs first then other things  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Use em dash for both
 * The MoS is happy with either type of dash.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Should be "as have French composers such as Georges Bizet "
 * Rihm is still with us, whereas Bizet et al were 19th-century: present tense for the former and past tense for the latter.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comma after June
 * Unnecessary in the King's English (though compulsory in AmE, I believe). See current edition of Fowler, pp. 4 and 732.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Replace the last symbol with a comma
 * Good. Done.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Composer should be singular
 * That wouldn't be English, unless you are proposing an exceptionally clunky false title.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "For the law" to just "law"
 * Fine as it is. Normal BrE usage.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Hyphen unnecessary
 * You're right. The OED prints it as a single word, as does Chambers. Adjusted.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comma after July
 * AmE usage, not wanted here.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Same here
 * Ditto.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Changed to "agreed upon"
 * Unnecessary extra word.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Em dashes needed
 * No they aren't. See the Manual of Style: either spaced en-dashes or unspaced em-dashes are prescribed.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Change to and his impetuous and dynamic alter ego "Florestan".
 * The second his would be ambiguous: Schumann's or Eusebius's? The definite article covers both possibilities.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Em dashes again
 * As above.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Em dashes please
 * No - see above.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comma after November
 * No, as explained above. This is in BrE.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comma after March
 * As above.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Em dashes please
 * As above.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: OK, so please replace your en dashes with em dashes and add a comma after the month in DMY format.
 * No to both - see the Manual of Style.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Should "the motherhood of their seven children."
 * Unnecessary extra word.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Should be "towards the former"
 * Fine as it is. See current edition of Fowler, pp. 137 and 685.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "Was" is redundant
 * This is in BrE. Premiere is not used intransitively here.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "In" before London is not needed.
 * OK. Removed.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Again "was" is redundant
 * It isn't: see above.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * For this one, the dash should be a colon
 * No. See Fowler, p. 202.


 * "are" to "is"
 * Yes. Done.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Remove "the"
 * This is the normal form. It refers to the genre. Without the definite article it would be specific and the noun would need to be plural, but that is not what Moore is saying.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "Sets" should be plural
 * That would not be English.   Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Add semicolon after "settings"
 * Unnecessary.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "The" unnecessary
 * Better with it in my view.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Who exactly are you referring to when you say "his"
 * Schumann's, which is the only possible meaning, it seems to me. One doesn't want the name "Schumann" in three sentences in succession if it can be avoided.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * "Subsequently" is redundant and "performance" should be plural
 * The adverb makes the meaning clearer, and the noun should not be plural. HIP is a genre.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Add "the" before "outdoor"
 * Otiose.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Add "are" after bars
 * Not needed.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Not sure what point you are trying to make here.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Never mind that. Wolverine XI   ( talk to me ) 16:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Never mind that. Wolverine XI   ( talk to me ) 16:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Completed?
 * Correct as it is. It is an adjective and not a participle.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * change to "date from the early days"
 * But they don't. They date from Schumann's time a century earlier.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * change to "a core"
 * Correct as it is.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Replace commas with semicolons
 * A matter of personal preference.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Add hyphen between "first" and "century"
 * Were it in its own I should do so, but the coupling with the twentieth century makes it desirable to omit it so that "century" attaches itself equally to both.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * colon = full stop & apart = Apart
 * The colon here serves what Fowler calls the function of "delivering the goods that have been invoiced in the preceding words". A new sentence would break that connexion.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

My criticisms above are minor; overall, this is a lengthy, well-written piece. When all is done, I'd appreciate a review of the narwhal FAC. Thanks, Wolverine XI   ( talk to me ) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll look in at your Narwhal nomination. Meanwhile, thank you for commenting here.  Tim riley  talk   13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. You have my support. Wolverine XI   ( talk to me ) 16:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your support, Wolverine. I'll comment at your Narwhal FAC as soon as I can.  Tim riley  talk   17:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

 * Article and chapter titles should consistently be in either title or sentence case, regardless of how they appear in their original.
 * "His works typified the spirit of the Romantic era in German music." You sure that should be past tense? Have they since ceased to do so?

Gog the Mild (talk) 12:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these. I have my right arm in plaster and cannot type very easily but hope to be improved by midweel and will attedn to your comments then.  Tim riley  talk   06:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh dear, that sounds like an unhappy state of affairs. I'll promote this, on the assumption that you will see to the two minor points above once you are able to. If either raise issues, could you let me know. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gog - will certainly do.  Tim riley  talk   20:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)