Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roberta Williams/archive1

Roberta Williams

 * Nominator(s): Shooterwalker (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a notable game developer, who earned their reputation mainly with the King's Quest series from the 1980s and 1990s. She arguably developed the first graphic adventure game, which catapulted her career and her company, Sierra Entertainment. She retired in the late 1990s after Sierra went through a series of acquisitions (including some unfortunate financial drama). But she leaves a great legacy of titles she personally developed, plus the successful business that she ran with her husband, Ken. She has won lifetime achievement awards for her overall career. I think the article is already in pretty strong shape after the GA, and should be very thorough, and pretty well-written. The prose can always use another pass and I will work at this to bring it up to featured quality. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support from AviationFreak
Just conducting a prose review here. At least to my reading, this article contains a lot of extraneous commas. I personally tend to be fairly particular about this and I don't want to assert that my opinion is necessarily the only "right" way of doing things, so maybe hold off on this until another editor gives a second opinion. Moved from the FAC page on 11:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC) This is what I've got. Certainly a pioneering figure deserving of a FA, glad that effort is being made! AviationFreak💬 00:51, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Add birthplace to infobox (if known to city-level accuracy)
 * Link California or Southern California
 * Maybe clarify that it was her first job after high school, not university or other education.
 * - suggest "a few months later"
 * Link computer operator
 * Link Interactive fiction as "text adventure games" (or Text-based game if you feel that would be more appropriate)
 * is used word-for-word twice in adjacent sections. Suggest adding some variation.
 * A release year is given for Wizard and the Princess, but not Mystery House, Time Zone, or other games in the article.
 * "disk" and "disc" are both used in the article. Should be standardized, probably in favor of the American "disk".
 * Usually it's disk for "hard disk" and disc for "optical disc"; can just clarify in-line if that's the case here czar  06:57, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Oakhurst, California
 * - Does this reference 1982? The previous sentence just says "around this time", which I assume to mean "anywhere from 1981ish to 1983ish".
 * Link to Simi Valley should be expanded to "Simi Valley, California" so that California is not duplinked after above changes
 * "Sierra" is italicized in the second sentence of the next paragraph.
 * Link Jim Henson
 * Suggest piping "game adaptation" link to include the preceding "a", thus indicating that the link is not just to an article on game adaptations.
 * Did the company or the game (The Dark Crystal) attract the media attention?
 * The concept of a pseudo-3D game that allows a character to walk in front of or behind objects is explained twice in the same paragraph
 * Suggest "16 color" -> "16-color"
 * Did King's Quest III double the previous games' size in terms of disk space, game length, or some other metric?
 * Not a prose consideration, but I see that FN19 does not include a page number or numbers.
 * Suggest adding "of all time" or "in the series" to as it is currently unclear. Also, is this talking about video games specifically or games in general?
 * - According to who?
 * - Suggest change to "she talked to Ken about selling their stock"
 * Suggest piping a link to Financial crime somewhere, either in the phrase "allegations of financial fraud" or "convicted of financial fraud". Accounting scandals could also be linked, as it's the more specific article for overrepresenting revenue.
 * Suggest using Inflation as you see fit within the article, not required though by any means
 * - Is this her hindsight? I actually can't find it in the cited source (only finding "18 games in 20 years"), but maybe I'm just missing something.
 * - Suggest "...was in the past, and that she was focused on..."
 * - I know it's nitpicky, but this feels like a reintroduction of Ken who is already well-established as her husband. Suggest just "her husband" or "Ken".
 * Per MOS:OL, countries' names should not be linked
 * Suggest noting that Odd Manor is a game developed by Facebook
 * Link Leisure Suit Larry
 * The name of the scholarship is not italicized in the source
 * Link Next Generation (magazine)
 * - Suggest "...their list of 75 power players..."
 * - This is the first time the company is referred to as Sierra Entertainment, as opposed to "Sierra On-Line" or just "Sierra". Suggest just shortening to "Sierra".
 * Italicize Computer Gaming World at start of next paragraph
 * TGA and the 2014 installment thereof are linked separately, while the GDCA is only linked as the 20th installment
 * - What is a work role? Also, if you end up shortening to "Sierra" above it might not hurt to do it here.
 * Italicize Ars Technica
 * Mixed-Up Mother Goose is duplinked


 * AviationFreak, hey, could you move the review to project's talk? It would help a lot to alleviate the length of an FAC, as this would double in length once the nominator answers these! You can keep the general comments and support here. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 08:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure thing! AviationFreak💬 11:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. I think I've addressed all your comments. Mostly focused on prose, but also dug into the research where it helped to clarify and be more specific. Let me know if there is anything else. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks much better now, just a few tweaks:
 * Change the "r=" parameter in Inflation to better suit the understood level of uncertainty in large dollar amounts (i.e. $500 million)
 * 20th Game Developers Choice Awards is piped from "Pioneer Award". Suggest making the piped text "earned the Pioneer Award".
 * That's all that I'm seeing at this point. Excellent work! AviationFreak💬 21:43, 11 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi AviationFreak, sorry about this, but could you do me a favour and move your comments back to where they belong, on this page. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries, they're back. Going to courtesy ping to let them know that comments generally should stay here. Thanks! AviationFreak💬 22:11, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed those last two things. That looks like everything for now. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry to do this, but one other thing after looking over the lede again - The broad The Game Awards is linked, while the more specific 20th Game Developers Choice Awards is linked. They should probably be either both the awards ceremonies or the specific iterations thereof. AviationFreak💬 13:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I blanked on this until I realized the issue was in the lead. Should be fixed now. Thanks again for the review. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries - Looks good now. Support on prose. AviationFreak💬 01:37, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Panini!
Placeholder; I'll review after I get some other projects done. Panini! • 🥪 12:04, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Comment: note that The Secret got announced a couple weeks ago as a 3D and VR remake of Colossal Cave Adventure. -- Pres N  14:55, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 (UTC)
 * Coordinator comment - at three weeks without a general support, this one is liable to be archived in a few days if there is not progress towards a consensus to promote. Hog Farm Talk 14:17, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Just a note to the nominator that I'll be happy to support if/when my final comment is taken care of. Might also be worth a courtesy ping to as it's been a couple weeks since the placeholder. AviationFreak💬 15:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Ack! I forgot. Double ack! I've left a placeholder for Chibi-Robo! Zip Lash. Triple ack! I don't have a reason but felt a third one was justified. I'll get to this as soon as I can. Panini!  • 🥪 16:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Comments coming now. Panini!  • 🥪 11:36, 2 May
 * Fortunately a few more reviews came in, and I was able to catch up on the edits. Thanks to  and  for their reviews. Optimistic that my work is earning their support. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Lead
 * Thanks for the new image!
 * The lead reads well, albeit it feels short. A couple of thoughts here can be expanded upon with a few more word to make things less generalized:
 * "Roberta took a brief sabbatical" - How come?
 * "and focused her retirement on travelling and writing historical fiction" - Did she do (or write) anything notable during this period?
 * "Several publications have named her as one of the best or most influential creators in the game industry" - For what reasons?


 * Game design career
 * This may merely be a personal choice, but I think the article would benefit from timestamps in the headers (like these ones)
 * Early graphic adventure games
 * Specifying "her husband Ken Williams" isn't necessary. It could simply be Ken from here on out.
 * "drawing influence Agatha Christie's story" - Duplicate comment below, missing a "from"
 * "The game soon sold 10,000 copies, with Roberta personally packing the disks and supporting materials in Ziploc bags, and answering her home phone to provide hints for the game's puzzles." - Simply stating I like this slice of content. It gives good insight into early game design.
 * "He quit his consulting job so that the couple could pursue their dream of leaving the city." - This contradicts an earlier statement, which reads "The couple wanted to leave Los Angeles to fulfill their dream of living in the woods." Is there a reason for the change?
 * "and led them to hire additional employees for distribution and programming" - Going off my previous insight on the statement above, certainly, there's more info than what's stated here, right? Considering how small the game industry was they might have had a close connection with these "additional employees" to call them out by name. I haven't looked at the source, but is such info in existence?
 * What's an "epic game"? Is this a video game genre? Promotional jargon? Fortnite?
 * King's Quest breakthrough
 * "While Ken Williams was amenable to the deal, Roberta strongly opposed it, and the merger did not proceed" - Why was she opposed?
 * "The game was considered revolutionary for introducing pseudo-3D elements in an explorable world" - Is this the first of its kind? If so, that would be a good detail to mention. It's kind of implied, but a "the first game to" would be helpful to explicitly state so.
 * I'd link pseudo-3d to 2.5D. I'm not a fan of how two different concepts are mushed together into one article, but it's better than nothing.
 * Mixed-Up Mother Goose is an educational title, right? Considering how this is far different than her other ventures, some details could be expanded upon to answer reader questions, and explicitly state this is an educational game in the first place.
 * Could you clarify what you mean by "interactive mystery"? Aren't all of these games interactive?
 * "remembering" implies that Computer Gaming World called the game the greatest of all time at a later date. What year was this greatest games of all time list made?

Everything beyond here looks good to me. Good Job! Panini!  • 🥪 13:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Did my best to address these. It's always a thin line between overstating something and being extra clear. Hopefully the tweaks in language were able to clarify some of the facts. I'm glad you liked it overall, and hopefully this is good enough for support! Shooterwalker (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. I would leave some other "you did a great job" comments but I gotta run. Toodles! Panini!  • 🥪 23:59, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review and run into you again soon. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Edwininlondon
Thank you for bringing this bio here. Good to see another woman's bio at FAC. I have no domain expertise so can just add a few comments: That's it from me. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:44, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * became a modest commercial success, and became --> repetition of became
 * Several publications have named her as one of the best or most influential creators in the game industry, with several --> repetition several
 * sometimes lie in bed and imagine fantastical situations, which she sometimes --> repetition sometimes
 * The couple briefly moved to Illinois, where Roberta was employed as a computer operator.[5] The couple --> 3 "couple"s in successive sentences. I'd change the middle one to They
 * drawing influence Agatha Christie's --> missing from?
 * Versawriter--> it seems to me this device is notable enough to have its own article, so redlink?
 * In actuality, both her and Ken had signed --> she?
 * she expressed that her greatest achievement was creating Phantasmagoria, --> this was already mentioned in the previous section
 * The company was later acquired by Activision Blizzard --> I have no knowledge of the game industry but the Activision Blizzard page says it came about as a merger with Vivendi, so it may well be it was not acquired but simply inherited.
 * Activision would attempt--> why not "attempted"?
 * remake of Colossal Cave Adventure --> perhaps add a little extra about this being a pioneering game from the 1970s
 * listed Roberta Williams among their list --> double use of list not very elegant
 * also included her as tenth --> this means she was tenth in the first list, is that what you meant?
 * most well known --> best-known?
 * the last paragraph has "also" twice close together. Not sure you need either
 * one of the sources mentions her new company as Cygnus Entertainment. Should this not be mentioned?
 * Thanks for the feedback. I took these into account and hopefully we're closer to FA now. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * All fine except for you have Cygnus as Cygnus Games but the source says Cygnus Entertainment. Edwininlondon (talk) 05:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, the two sources are different on that. But went ahead and changed it to be more consistent to the source in citation. Hopefully that does it now. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * OK. I Support on prose. Nice work! Edwininlondon (talk) 06:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks again! Shooterwalker (talk) 22:10, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Note from nominator
I count three supports on prose. There's been some modifications since the GA, and I might appreciate some input from someone with expertise in the subject matters. (Pinging if they have the time.) I'm guessing we probably need an accessibility and a source review too? Someone flagged the Ken Williams book as questionable, but I think it's used sparingly and appropriately, in accordance with WP:SPS. I think this article is very close to featured quality now. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:10, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Image review
 * Don't duplicate captions in alt text
 * Just noting for coords that File:Roberta_Williams,_GDC_2022.jpg is pending VRT verification. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:09, 5 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I fixed the alt text in the various images. I can always tweak them further if they need to be more descriptive. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720
Non-expert prose review. I am really happy that a female game designer has been brought to FAC, as this will help combat the systematic bias that is present on Wikipedia.


 * "She is also known for her role in creating and maintaining the King's Quest series," What was her role? From reading King's Quest's article, I think she is the creator and maintained the game, so I think "her role in" can be deleted.
 * "create a 3D remake of the classic adventure game, Colossal Cave Adventure." I don't think the commma is necessary here.
 * "or most influential creators in the game industry," in the video game industry?
 * "as well as her role as co-founder of Sierra" -> "and her role as co-founder" to tighten up the language
 * "was as a clerk at the County of Los Angeles Welfare Department, " I think "as" can be deleted
 * "Roberta married Ken Williams just a few days after his eighteenth birthday," Delete just
 * "She became pregnant just a few months later, and gave birth to their first son in November 1973." We don't need to know that she was pregnant a few months later, as giving birth to their son in November 1973 implies that she was pregnant and most competent readers know that a pregnancy is 9 months. I suggest, "Roberta married Ken Williams a few days after his eighteenth birthday and gave birth to their first son in November 1973."
 * "By 1979, the couple had two children." Since the first child was already talked about, perhaps a rewording to, "The couple had their second child by 1979"
 * "Around 1979, Roberta Williams was an avid player of text adventure games on a teletype machine," The last sentence of the previous section mentions the text adventure games, too, so this seems redundant. I think the text adventures should be mentioned here and the previous mention be deleted.
 * "as well as the board game Clue." -> and the board game Clue, to tighten up the language. Readers have low attention spans, so in my opinion it is usually better to use fewer words to express an idea to maintain reader interest.
 * "The game went on to sell 60,000" -> "The game sold 60,000"
 * "Designed as mature title for adults," -> Designed as a mature title for adults?
 * "selling more than 1 million copies upon its release in 1995." -> "one million" per MOS:NUMERAL
 * "and that she could even be sued by their shareholders if she failed to maximize their value." Delete even
 * "In 2019, Vancouver Film School announced The Roberta Williams Women in Game Design Scholarship, in partnership with game studios The Coalition and Blackbird Interactive." Should this be in the Legacy and accolades section?

Those are my thoughts. Z1720 (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I tried my best to address most of these. Let me know if you see any lingering issues, and thanks for the review. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Concerns are addressed. I support. Z1720 (talk) 00:33, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Shooterwalker (talk) 19:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Source review
Footnote numbers refer to this version. I'll look at the formatting again once these points are addressed. I'll look at links and reliability next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * What's the logic behind your use of the website/work and publisher parameters? For example, [16] has a website/work but no publisher; [68] has both; [22] has only the publisher but you have a domain name there instead of a publisher; [52] has only the publisher; and [51] has neither.  It doesn't matter how you do this so long as there's some logic and consistency.  For example, a common approach is to have the website/work parameter be the name of the website, and to only use the publisher parameter if it's not obvious from the website/work -- e.g. if the website is "The New York Times" there's no need to put "The New York Times" as the publisher.
 * What is [32] referring to?
 * What is [62] referring to?
 * [44] needs an upper case "The"

What makes the following reliable sources? I'll delay checking links until these are resolved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ken Williams' Not All Fairy Tales Have Happy Endings. It's published by Lulu.com, which is a self-publishing company.
 * thedoteaters.com
 * adventureclassicgaming which says "anyone can contribute"
 * womengamers.com which says something similar
 * gamersdepot.com
 * choicestgames.com, which is a blog
 * gamezebo.com -- I can see it's reliable now, since the 2016 sale to iWin, but can we show it was a reliable source in 2011? It seems to have been largely a one-man operation at that time.
 * destructoid.com -- similarly, it seems to have been acquired since the content you cite was created, but it was apparently a blog at that time.
 * citypaper.com -- this seems to redirect to the Baltimore Sun but since there's no archive link I can't be sure that's what's intended.


 * For the parameters, those are probably artifacts of copying and pasting sources from other articles, and I haven't been checking the actual markup, focusing instead on how it actually reads. Is there a best practice when it comes to which parameters to use for different types of sources?
 * There's no standard; the requirement at FAC is consistency, so there are lots of ways to do it. A common way, and what I would probably recommend since it's easy to remember, is to use the website= parameter (or work=, which is just an alias for the same thing) for the name of the website, and either don't put the publisher in at all, or have a rule about when to put the publisher in, such as "only put the publisher in if it can't be deduced from the website name".  That approach would be fairly quick for you to apply to the cites in the article at the moment.
 * Otherwise, I fixed a lot of sources, and even removed a few. The remaining sources you mentioned (adventureclassicgaming, womengamers, the Ken Williams book) are interviews with Ken and Roberta Williams. I believe they meet the standards of reliability based on WP:ABOUTSELF, and if anything seems contentious, we could add clarification such as "Roberta has recalled that..." or "according to Roberta". Shooterwalker (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've struck the ones you've removed. The issue with a possibly unreliable source is not so that it's opinion, but that reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking will cross-check quotes in interviews with the interview subject to make sure they have them right.  I was once interviewed by a national magazine and a fact-checker called me to confirm all the quotes.  I haven't looked yet to see exactly what is supported by these sources in each case, but if for example you can show that Williams comments positively about the interview that would confirm she is OK with the quotes in it.
 * This is a good place to look for evidence of reliability; it doesn't mention adventureclassicgaming or gamersdepot, and says womengamers has to be used with care since it's a blog. The talk page of that page is pretty active and you might ask there if there's a way to show the reliability of these sources for what you're using them for. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to quickly tag Indrian because they advised me to use the Ken Williams source when they oversaw the good article nomination. They might be able to speak to the accuracy of the web-based interviews too. Hopefully that can at least shorten the list of sources that we need to continue investigating. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've taken a look at the context of the sources used, and on the whole I think they comport to Wikipedia policy.


 * First to address the book: it is self-published, but it is a memoir. Ken Williams is an expert on the life of Ken Williams because he lived it. Ken Williams is also an expert on the shared experience of himself and Roberta because he lived that too. He also directly quoted her on a couple of points in the book. Seeing as they are still married and actively doing a new game project together, I find it highly unlikely he published material she was not okay with behind her back. ABOUTSELF permits the use of self-published sources when the author is discussing themselves or events they were direct participants in so long as it is not unduly self serving.  This book is cited to a few times, but it is almost all for basic biographical or corporate information. While Ken is the author, the birth of Roberta's child is also the birth of his child; Roberta's marriage is his marriage; a game being greenlit by Roberta's company is a game being greenlit by his company, etc. So long as the book is used to document this shared experience, it comports with policy.  The only uses that may be dodgy are when the book discusses her inspirations for doing certain games like Wizard and the Princess or Phantasmagoria. While I personally have no doubt these are "true" statements based on Ken's understanding as both her husband and the head of the publisher of her games, that may stray too far from being material about the author of the book. I would, of course, defer to the source reviewer for that.


 * As for the interview sources; I really don't see the problem. These are, in effect, self-published sources about the subject because it is the subject's own words being cited to. This is not a situation where a news site is asking for and incorporating into an article a quote from the subject that might be taken out of context: it is the transcript of a conversation between two people. Even if edited or cleaned up, the material is entirely in the context of the questions that were asked and the answers are the subject's own words.  The only concern I could see would be if the interviews were suspected to be complete fabrications, but I feel that would be moving out of the realm of source critique and into conspiracy theory.  Adventure Classic Gaming, for instance, has published interviews with dozens of the biggest names in adventure games from all the major companies, and some of these interviews were conducted and published when these people were still employed by said companies. Are we really supposed to believe that dozens of interviews were fabricated and none of these individuals or their employers sued or had the material removed? Also, in the specific case of that site, both Ken and Roberta were interviewed twice, seven years apart.  I don't find it credible they were generally unhappy with their treatment if they came back for round two.


 * Focusing in specifically on Gamersdepot.com, I believe this site passes the notability threshold regardless of the above. It's not on the VGProject sources list because it went defunct in 2006 before anyone was really assessing reliability much on Wikipedia.  Looking at the old "About" page, it did have an editorial board that included at least one veteran journalist, but more importantly, it was part of the Cnet Gamecenter Alliance which was, according to our Wikipedia article, "a network to bring [Cnet's] Gamecenter and four partner websites [...] under one banner."  Cnet is considered reliable on Wikipedia for tech news, and the Gamecenter Alliance websites were all Cnet affiliates.


 * Anyway, that's just my two cents since I was asked her to opine. Obviously, the source reviewer has the final say on all of this, and I defer to their judgement. Indrian (talk) 00:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot to Indrian. let me know if that addresses all or even some of your concerns. I'll be honest that in all the FA nominations I've participated in, I've never had someone ask me to contact the interview subject to see if they can confirm their interview comments are accurate. But we can figure out which sources still need that, with the understanding that contacting Williams may be difficult or even slow. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Indrian, thanks for the detailed notes. It's not an editing area I'm famiilar with and this is very useful. Shooterwalker, I didn't mean to imply that we should contact Ken or Roberta Williams; sometimes in a small field people go on record about what they think about other sources. For the interview sites I'll go through what each one was used for in more detail and come back and post here again soon. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * For the Ken Williams memoir, I think you're right that it's generally OK for what it's used for. However, I think you could and hence should find another source for the date Sierra went public -- you have 1987, but our article on the company says 1989.  So I haven't struck that line out above just yet.  The other points cited to that memoir are OK; it's the same reliability as a blog by a person only used to cite uncontroversial information about that person.
 * I've struck gamersdepot; the about page you found is just what I was looking for and establishes they were reliable at that time.

I've now struck womengamers.com; I found an about page, which for some reason I didn't find before, indicating editorial control. It looks like they did allow user contributions, and one of the conductors of the interview is not listed as a staff contributor, but the other is the site's founder, so I think that's fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:51, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

For Gamezebo I was able to find this on the Internet Archive -- my main concern there was that the evidence used to establish reliability now is no help in establishing whether it was reliable in 2011. This page lists editorial control as of 2011. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

For Adventure Classic Gaming, it's the same issue -- yes, it's unlikely someone would mangle an interviewee's words, but we still don't use interviews from websites thought to be unreliable. We would not use an interview from the Daily Mail under most circumstances, for example. In this case I found this page showing that Jong is the founder and editor-in-chief of the site. He doesn't distinguish between editors and contributors, and says nothing about editorial policy, so there's no way for me to tell how much editorial control is exerted over contributions from the public. However, he's the one who conducted both interviews, so I'm fine with using them -- I looked at what they cite and there's nothing controversial there. I would be less happy about a interview conducted by someone other than Jong unless there's a way to tell that they're actually a staff member, or some other evidence that there's overall editorial control on all contributions. Anyway, I've struck this above.

That just leaves the IPO date for Sierra, and the citypaper.com link. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for problem solving with me, and sorry for the misunderstanding. I figure the interviews aren't making too many controversial claims, and some are listed as situational sources on WP:VG/RS. Let me see if I can address the remaining references.
 * I did fix the citypaper.com archive link, and the archive says "Copyright © 2015, Baltimore City Paper, a Baltimore Sun Media Group publication".
 * The "going public" date is confusing. The source really just says that they were a public company by the early 1990s. The Ken Williams book says they started working on their IPO in 1987, and then for some confusing reason, the first shares were available at the end of 1988. I'm reverting to an older version of the article where the status of the company is mentioned more broadly, in the context of the subject's career. I don't think the exact date is too crucial.
 * I also took some time to clean up some of the reference templates for consistency. Let me know how we're doing. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, neither article was right. Sierra went public in October 1988. IPOs take a long time to pull together, so it’s not surprising they were working on the IPO in 1987. Indrian (talk) 02:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Those two fixes look good now. I've struck those and will take a look at the formatting again now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 09:57, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Cite fomatting Footnote numbers refer to to this version.
 * What's the reason for choosing cite journal vs. cite magazine? The output they produce is slightly differently laid out, which is OK if you have a clear way of choosing which to use -- academic publications might get cite journal, for example, and popular magazines might get cite magazine.  And in both cases you have some with a publisher and some without.
 * For cite news and cite web (which work almost identically), things look a lot more consistent now. There are still publishers on [66], [43], [57], [11], [17], & [10]; is there a reason for those particular ones to have publishers?  If not I would suggest just removing them.

Links
 * [10] is dead and so is the archive link.
 * [35] is dead and there is no archive link.
 * [61] is dead and there's no archive link.
 * [66] is dead and there's no archive link.

That's everything. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I got everything. Thanks for being thorough. Take a look and let me know what you think. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

The links are all good now. The remaining cites with publishers (other than books) are:

If you're getting to consistency by eliminating all the publishers, getting rid of these will be the end of it; if these are left in for some reason let me know what it is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I removed all of them except the 1UP Network, and it's a unique one if you follow the link. Computer Gaming World is conventionally a magazine, but I'm referencing it to the 1up Network, which owns / re-published it. It's the only source that does this so I think it makes sense to make it clear who the two different entities are, so it doesn't look like a mistake. I hope that makes sense. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Pass. All good now. Thanks for being patient with a fairly nit-picky review! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you again for your thoroughness! Shooterwalker (talk) 17:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator comments

 * I copyedited this article so am recused from it, but it looks like it may be ready for promotion. The image is still pending VRT so maybe it should be removed until its status is confirmed. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:39, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If it's all the same, I don't mind waiting until the image is established to meet fair use. I worry that if it's removed, the verification process might die with it. (But I've always struggled with the image processes here, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.) Shooterwalker (talk) 01:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * VRT process is unrelated to whether the image is used in any articles. Commons hosts many images that will never be used in WP articles. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  08:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Hoping the image works out as it raises the overall quality of the article. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Shooterwalker, as notes, there would seem to be a consensus to promote this article. Before a coordinator considers it with a view to closing they would expect the VRT issue to have been resolved. You could remove the image, on the understanding that it would not be reinstated until and unless VRT give it a clean bill of health. Or you could leave it open, anticipating that the coordinators will have a reasonable but not infinite degree of patience with the nomination. Your call. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:12, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't understand the VRT process at all, and don't know how long it will take. I'm waiting in the dark, so to speak. But I would like to see the image included when this article is promoted. If you think it makes sense, I'd like to wait. (And obviously let me know if your patience starts to run out.) Shooterwalker (talk) 20:49, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Will do. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Shooterwalker, it's been a week since the last exchange. Gog is now on a short break so stepping in I think it's time to finalise the licensing or else simply remove the image in question and promote without. The image can always be added back when/if VRT is sorted. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Before we do that, do you have any idea how to move the VRT process along? I'm mostly sitting here waiting, and I have no idea if it will be days or months. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:03, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that's a black box to me, image reviewers might know. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh well. If we're out of time, go ahead and remove the image. If the prose is all the same, that's what's most important. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Just FTR, I see it's been removed from Commons -- and hence the article -- by another editor. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 20:48, 29 May 2022 (UTC)