Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rock Martin/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:20, 12 June 2010.

Rock Martin

 * Nominator(s):  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  14:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I can't think of anything else to add, and I believe it meets the criteria. It's another little brown swallow, I'm afraid, but at least its African, an area of weakness for WP fauna projects  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  14:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 17:30, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources comment: For consistency's sake, publisher locations should be added to those books that don't presntly have them. Otherwise, all sources look OK, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Brian, locations all present now  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support All looking good. Ucucha 06:16, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Comment. I passed this as a GA before and it seems to have improved since; on a read through, I didn't find any problems. There are a few sources that should perhaps be included:
 * Title: Nest eviction of rock martins by little swifts.
 * Author(s): Carr, B.A.
 * Source: Ostrich Volume: 55 Issue: 4 Page(s): 223-224 Published: 1984


 * Title: Variation, geographical arcs and gene-flow within the populations of the rock martin Hirundo (Ptyonoprogne) fuligula in eastern, southern and south-western Africa.
 * Author(s): Irwin, M.P.S.
 * Source: Honeyguide Volume: No.,91 Page(s): 10-19,illust. Published: 1977

Ucucha 08:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing again. Carr is a good find, they often nest together, so this behaviour is not surprising. I can't access Irwin. If there is anything important that should go in, would you me kind enough to email it to me? Thanks again,  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  12:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have it either, but is in the library (don't know when I'll be going there). It does sound like there could be some interesting pieces. Ucucha 13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that Turner used this paper as a primary source for her discussion of the seasonal movements of Rock Martins.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the summary, I've incorporated Irwin's useful data in a new sentence at the end of "subspecies".  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for addition and support. I don't know if there is an MoS on whether to use current or former country names, but you sentence neatly solves that for this article at least  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments: Sasata (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * for the lead, I'd suggest linking plumage, flight feather, subspecies, clutch; conversely, is a link to insects necessary?
 * since there's a dearth of photos of the species, how about cropping the taxobox image so that more of the picture is of the bird?
 * "The sexes are similar," in appearance? (same in description section)
 * "… and are sometimes split as the "Pale Crag Martin". split into a different species? Need to be more explicit here for clarity I think
 * "16–19 days to hatching" ->prior to hatching? (also in breeding section)
 * authority & year for synonym in taxobox?
 * nbsps in short-form
 * link hybridise
 * not a fan of the list-like subspecies section with incomplete sentences. Would rather see it in a table than the form it's in now, or (preferably) as prose.
 * perhaps relink covert & fledge (there a ways from the lead), rufous, vagrant, conspecifics
 * "short range" needs hyphen
 * why link Congo but not Gabon, Kuwait, Mali or Mauritania? (and later, Botswana and Namibia)
 * link synonym
 * foreign-language titles should have Engligh translation
 * some refs end with full stops, others don't
 * Tuner cited text title in sentence case, other aren't
 * Thanks for careful review, I've followed all your suggestions. I opted for a table rather than prose because there are too many ssp to make compelling writing when there is so little to say about each form.  Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Support - Looks good. Sasata (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  19:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The range map looks like it has been drawn with a bit of a shaky pen, and I would not like to see it go out in the FT book like that. Snowman (talk) 16:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for comments. This is version 3 of the map following geographical corrections, and it's the best I can do. Distributions don't follow straight lines or small curves anyway, they just fade out. Maps aren't a FA or FT requirement and can be removed if necessary <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The shaky lines are not like a finished product and I think the schematic makes the article look a bit amateurish. Snowman (talk) 20:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that the authority formatting in wrong. I have occasionally written it the way you have written it and some erudite bird editors rewrite it with the the name and the date within the brackets. I have not asked why, but I presume that there is some agreed standard format somewhere. Snowman (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you refer to the parentheses, they are used where the current name is not the original name. So Barn Swallow is Hirundo rustica Linnaeus, 1758, but House Martin is Delichon urbicum (Linnaeus) 1758 since he named it Hirundo urbica. I corrected the first taxobox occurrence of Lichtenstein, which should have been parenthetical since he named it as Hirundo. AFAIK, none of the ssp has its original name and all should be parenthetical <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Some erudite bird editors would use "(Linnaeus 1758)". Snowman (talk) 08:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why have you amended it to "(Linnaeus, 1758)"? Snowman (talk) 10:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a "correct" style, other than when parentheses are used. Turner used (name) date, I switched these to (name, date) for consistency with the taxobox style rather than because Turner was "wrong". If you prefer it without the comma, that's fine with me too. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not want to pursue this any further, because I do not know much about the format. Nevertheless, it is good that the authority formatting is now consistent within the page. It might be something that WP Birds could discuss. Snowman (talk) 15:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Is mi2 a well known abbreviation? Snowman (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed, mos recommends superscript for metric and sq mi for imperial <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not happy with the readability of the article and I would recommend copy editing of the whole article again. Snowman (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you give examples, its hard to address generalised comments <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have done some copy editing in the "Predators and parasites" section: generally I improved readability by reducing ambiguity, complex grammar, and abstruse words. If necessary, please reword this section to improve it even further. In the absence new editors to the article, I would ask you to have a look through the rest of the article. Snowman (talk) 08:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * will do, thanks <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Other raptors known to eat Rock Martins include the Peregrine and Taita Falcons." - presumably these are fast and agile and catch martins in flight too. This line does not explain enough details. Snowman (talk) 21:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that's the case, since that's how falcons normally hunt birds or insects in flight, but the sources do not specifically say that for the two species you mention. Do you think I should assume it anyway and put something like Some falcons have the speed and agility to catch swallows and martins, and Rock Martins may be hunted by species such as the Peregrine Falcon,[24] Taita Falcon,[25] African Hobby and wintering Eurasian Hobby.[23] ? Unsigned edit by <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it does mean amending, because it could imply that the latter two do not catch them in flight. I was thinking about writing something like you suggest, but I have not got the references. I thought that it might be informative to differentiate the most common "enemies" and occasional "enemies", if there is such a difference. Snowman (talk)
 * now Some falcons have the speed and agility to catch swallows and martins in flight, and Rock Martins may be hunted by species such as the Peregrine Falcon,[23] Taita Falcon,[24] African Hobby and wintering Eurasian Hobby. All these falcons take a wide range of prey; Peregrines mainly eat larger birds like pigeons, and the others will take any available hirundine and also large insects. It's unlikely  that any of these are common predators. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak  - </b> talk to me?  12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Table presentation:
 * The table was not rendered well on small screens, so I have fixed the table so that it is viewed OK on my screen. If you have a wide screen you may not see a difference.  The image got in the way on the right of the table, so I have moved that to the section below. It it still OK on your screen now. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In (Geyr von Schweppenburg, 1916) will "Schweppenburg" be adequate? All the other names are just one name, but this name is in three words. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That all appears to be his surname, see also Leo Dietrich Franz Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg, and Turner and other sources always give the three names <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It probably needs a table footnote to say what the brackets mean. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have amended the format of the table footnote, so that it appears different to a reference. Snowman (talk) 12:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Should it say binomial or trinomial? Snowman (talk) 12:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, footnotes look better. I've changed to "scientific name" since the principle applies to bi- and trinomials <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  18:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Where are the references for the table? "The treatment here follows Turner (1989).[10]" should be rewritten. Does it mean that this is the reference for the table? Snowman (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * rephrased as The list below is based on Turner (1989)
 * The putative split with the Pale Crag Martin could be indicated in the table by using alternative letters in the trinomial names; see the "Trichoglossus" genus page for ideas. Snowman (talk) 16:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's appropriate here. It's not a single ssp that would be split, and although that doesn't prevent giving the trinomials, I follow Turner, who doesn't accept the split, and the ssp involved are clearly identified in the text. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support - disclose COI as wikiproject birds member, nevertheless these swallows have all flown past me to this point. Looks tight and professional. I can't think of anything else to tweak. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for support and kind words, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.