Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rodrigues starling/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC).

Rodrigues starling

 * Nominator(s): FunkMonk (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

A shorter companion to the recently promoted hoopoe starling article, this one is about a related extinct bird with an interesting history. Most of what is known about the bird (which is very little) is here. The article has been copyedited and promoted to GA. FunkMonk (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Fixed number of columns in reflist is deprecated in favour of colwidth
 * Be consistent in whether you use London or London, UK
 * FN22 is missing location. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed all but the first one, not sure how to do that. FunkMonk (talk) 16:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I changed the colwidth per recs here : Template:Reflist --Gaff (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks! FunkMonk (talk) 08:26, 20 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comments from JM
 * "He stated that he was confined to the offshore islet of Île Gombrani, which was then called au Mât." He was, or the bird was?
 * The bird, not sure what happened there! FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "In an article written in 1875, British ornithologist Alfred Newton attempted to identify the bird, and hypothesised that it was related to the also extinct hoopoe starling (Fregilupus varius) of nearby Réunion.[4]" This is a slightly confusing sentence, as you jump from talking about eyewitnesses to assuming that the reader knows that the species is extinct. How about something like "Writing in 1875, some time after the species's extinction, British ornit...". Also, perhaps you could specify that this attempt was solely based on the descriptions
 * Tweaked it a bit differently, better?


 * "the British Transit of Venus expedition" Again, assumed knowledge on the part of the reader. "A naturalist visiting the island as part of a British expedition..." or something would perhaps be better
 * Took the part out for the entire sentence to flow better. FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "as had magistrate George Jenner shortly before" Why not chronological?
 * Restructured the whole sentence. FunkMonk (talk) 16:35, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "These bones were found in caves on the Plaine Coral, a limestone plain in south west Rodrigues.[5] These bones" Repetition
 * Changed to "they", is that what you had in mind? FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * ""Nekros" and "psar" are Greek for "dead starling"" No- Nekros is Greek for dead, and psar is Greek for starling.
 * Added "and", better? FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "More subfossils found in 1974 confirmed that the Rodrigues bird was a distinct genus of starling." I'm not keen on this certainty; "added support to the claim that" would be better than "confirmed that", and perhaps you could merge this with the following sentence?
 * Implemented your first suggestion, but not sure about merging the sentences. The bill was known long before 1974, so the sentences are not really connected... FunkMonk (talk) 15:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "Until then, the Rodrigues starling was the only Mascarene passerine bird named from fossil material." Subfossil, surely? Or are subfossils a type of fossil? (Technically, I would guess not, but I defer to your knowledge.)
 * Subfossils are fossils so recent that they are only partially mineralised, or not mineralised at all. So it is both the first fossil and subfossil Mascarene passerine named from such... FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "He suggested that this was the bird mentioned by Tafforet, instead of the one described from the bones found on mainland Rodrigues. He suggested that N. leguati was another variant of Fregilupus." Could this prose be massaged a little?
 * Simplified it, better? It is a very confusing situation, hehe...


 * "between faunas" Odd
 * Better now? FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "was smaller compared to other starlings" small compared to, or smaller than those of.
 * Changed to "smaller compared to those of other starlings", better? FunkMonk (talk) 15:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * "attacked the native birds and tortoises instead" As well as, presumably?
 * Yes, fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Generally very strong. Sources all look appropriate, but I've not done any spotchecks. J Milburn (talk) 12:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, should be fixed now, ! FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Great- I'll get back to this soon. J Milburn (talk) 11:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Support, but I haven't checked the images or spotchecked the sources. J Milburn (talk) 19:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Coordinator note:, this has been open for almost a month without any declaration of support. Have you reached out to other accomplished bird and general biology editors to ask for a review? -- Laser brain  (talk)  19:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, the review above seems to be going towards support, this article was listed yesterday at the Bird project. With obscure topics like this, I'm used to comments arriving only once it is way down the list (see for example ). FunkMonk (talk) 19:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If you haven't asked, perhaps, or  might be interested in taking a look? J Milburn (talk) 10:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, seemed to work, thanks, I'll get to it now then! FunkMonk (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim
I can't see much wrong with this, just a few comments follow Jimfbleak - talk to me?  07:52, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What variety of English are you using (centimeter/behaviour )?
 * However, there was much confusion&mdash;"however" is unneeded padding
 * "Mascarene" has variable capitalisation
 * British scientist George Ernest Shelley&mdash; "English" is more accurate
 * noted that the pigeons only bred there due to persecution from rats&mdash; I think you mean the opposite (also ambiguous under "Extinction")
 * Cheke, A. S. (1987); reference lacks publisher
 * Thanks, all should be fixed now, not sure what happened with centimeters, I always just write cm, must have happened during copyediting... As for the pigeons and the islets, I think it's clarified now... FunkMonk (talk) 20:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Cas Liber
I'd meant to comment on this the other day. Will make some comments soon, but need to attend to a couple of things first. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair amount of commentary here as is but if you're still keen to review, we can leave it open a bit longer... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:26, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks good - nt sure about "concluded" in passive tense in intro but can't think of a more apt word, so not a deal-breaker.


 * Would put greek words "necros" and "psar" in italics rather than quotes as they are foreign words
 * Changed "concluded" to "suggested" and added italics. Better? FunkMonk (talk) 14:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * yep - support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments Support from Chiswick Chap
It's nice to be mentioned, but I don't often attempt single-species articles myself. However I will try to make a few comments.

Overall, this is a nicely-written and well-organised article that anyone would be pleased to have written. I'm personally in favour of saying "the British scientist Xxxx Yyyy", "the British palaeontologist ..." rather than simply "British scientist Xxxx Yyyy" etc, especially as this article seems to be in British English.
 * Changed, I don't have a strong opinion on this. FunkMonk (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The image of the "Skull and temporomandibular joint" comes out rather grey and fuzzy; perhaps a better scan of the original could be obtained, but this is not a requirement.
 * It is actually from the same scan as the taxobox image, I left them different to have some "range", because using both was already a bit redundant... But there are so few images available for this bird that I used both, and had to illustrate the bird myself. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. It seems to be actually a rearrangement of some of the same sub-drawings from the lead image, in which case it is both of lower quality and wholly redundant. If so, that makes its inclusion rather hard to justify, however short we are of images. Your image is very nice, however!
 * Thanks, yeah, I'll replace it if I find something better, a photo of fossils would be nice... But it's not entirely redundant, it has a scale bar! FunkMonk (talk) 13:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Please wikilink François Leguat in the image caption in Behaviour and ecology.
 * Yup. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

There isn't an article on Julien Tafforet on English Wikipedia, but there is one on the French wiki (fr:Julien Tafforet); perhaps this could be linked (maybe in a footnote, which might summarise his story; or it could be translated and, ahem, sourced).
 * I've thought about this before, since I've mentioned him in many articles now... Will try to do it soon, translation from French is not needed, I have plenty of English sources describing him. FunkMonk (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

In "Description", a box provides "Tafforet's complete description". It occurs to me that the original French text would be worth including here, at least in a footnote and not unreasonably in the main text (a table could arrange French and English side-by-side), in case any subtleties of translation might offer interesting clues, given how little other material there is to go on.
 * I'll make it a footnote, most readers here won't have much use from it in the article body itself... FunkMonk (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I further note that if Tafforet elsewhere mentions other ecological details (on pigeons and parrots, etc) then it would be valuable to provide a link to his complete text, in French or English, if there is such anywhere on Archive.org, etc. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:21, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Will do, I've used that ref in other articles already. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll be ready to support as soon as that's linked. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Should already be there, it's ref 3 (and the doi is a link to an online version)... FunkMonk (talk) 13:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, subtle - under another name and with a maskirovka'd link! Perhaps it would be nice to have it as an External link. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, now you mention it, too subtle, actually... I remembered I once found an edition of Leguat's book where Tafforet's account was included as an appendix, but turns out it is in volume two (before he was identified by name, the only full online version I know of), and that there are apparently some internal link errors on the archive website. Will try to add it properly... FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, now I added the proper edition and page with this edit, and I listed Tafforet as author, but is this improper? He isn't listed in the original book, since his name wasn't identified yet... FunkMonk (talk) 15:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Tricky one. It probably doesn't matter; if you're worried you could add "not listed on title page" to the citation; or add a footnote; or put an informal link to the source in External links, saying it's the source for Tafforet. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not a problem for me if it isn't for any reviewers, Tafforet is so well established in the literature as the author by now, and his name is hammered into the reader's mind so many times in the article that it shouldn't be too controversial. FunkMonk (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments Support from Gaff
This is my first time commenting at FA, so please go easy on me if I say anything stupid. This is a very well written and thoroughly researched article. The prose is crisp, the article is well illustrated, and from the looks of the support above, it will soon be promoted. I enjoyed reading it. A few comments/questions follow. --Gaff (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice, hope this will encourage you to make future reviews! FunkMonk (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Are there any other carnivorous starlings? Since this was a point of contention in the taxonomy, it might be worth pointing out just how rare is this feature.
 * Apparently it isn't widespread (other species probably eat meat when available), can't find any reference to other carnivorous starlings, but that also means there's no real way to cite it... FunkMonk (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * You are an admin at Commons, so know this better than I, but consider clarifying sourcing File:Rodrigues Starling.jpg. Whose descriptions were used.  Is it derived directly from a specific illustration or image of a related species?
 * I've clarified the Commons description a bit, I drew the image based mainly on the subfossil skull, and followed patterns of relatives that have similar colouration, and glanced at some older restorations. Julian Hume's 2014 restoration is not too dissimilar, though he has added some unexplained yellow to the rump. Here's his earlier restoration: My drawing is closer in plumage to the old one, but the eye colour and skin around the eye is more similar to his 2014 version (black eye, yellowish skin). I drew the image after it was requested here (though with a lot of corrections since the first upload): FunkMonk (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm a little confused about the first paragraph of the Extinction section. The timing is odd, because your references show Legaut publishing in 1891, much later than Tafforet's visit.  Legaut was dead by then as well, and I see that the work was actually published by Oliver, so makes some sense.  The ISBN you give for the Hume/Walters book is not searchable on Google Books, but there is another edition here, which mentions the Tafforet in many places, including a section which mentions the Rodrigues starling, but this is under the section titled oddly enough Bi-coloured chough.  I can find no mention in this edition of Leguat.  Can you confirm the sourcing of this paragraph?  I think it is just my confusion and not having access to an offline edition.
 * Yes, the English edition of Leguat's book is from the 19th century, but the French edition was published in 1708, before Tafforet visited Rodrigues (I'll note this, thanks for bringing it up); Tafforet may even have had a copy of Leguat's book with him... The bi-coloured chough is just the bird Hachisuka imagined as the "true" carnivorous bird of Tafforet's account. FunkMonk (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Two redlinks in the lede are again redlinked in the first section of the body. Is that correct per MOS (presumable so, since noboday else mentioned it).
 * Red links are there to encourage article creation (I'll soon make a stub about Julien Tafforet), and words linked in the intro should also be linked at the first mention in the article. FunkMonk (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Image review Images are here and all have valid licenses to my inexperienced eye. --Gaff (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Necropsar rodericanus.jpg --- PD OLD with hyperlink to actual image reviewed by me.
 * File:FregilupusVarius.JPG -- photograph of museum specimen, appropriately sourced (own work, CC 3.0), already also in use on another FA article Hoopoe starling.
 * File:Necropsar.png -- PD old textbook 1907. Hyperlink provided to actual image reviewed by me.  Images from this source also used in other FA articles Hoopoe starling and Dodo
 * File:Rodrigues Starling.jpg -- Original artwork from User:FunkMonk with sources clearly stated.
 * File:Necropsar rodericanus skull.png -- PD old for author dead > 70 yrs. Work cited not available as hyperlink, but can AGF.
 * File:Leguat1891frontispieceFr1708.jpg -- PD old for author dead > 70 yrs. Work cited directly reviewed by me via hyperlink provided.
 * File:Rodrigues.jpg -- PD old for author dead > 70 yrs. Work cited directly reviewed by me via hyperlink provided.
 * File:LocationRodrigues.PNG -- MAP is PD from File:BlankMap-World-large.png with data source (the location of the island on the map) not provided, but that seems unnecessary, at least to me. Will defer to more experienced reviewer on this very, very minor point.
 * Tks Gaff.  Would you like to weigh in here? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:35, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks too for looking into those images, Gaff. Just from a reader's perspective File:Mauritius (+claim islands).svg may be better as map. It has less zoom and shows the area around Rodrigues much clearer. As a bonus, its source maps also have coordinates for verification. But map selection is a matter of preference, so either map should be no dealbreaker. GermanJoe (talk) 17:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * To me, it seems a bit too "political" in a sense, Réunion is part of the Mascarenes, but is greyed out for example, simply because it is not part of the current state of Mauritus, which did not even exist when this animal was alive, yet more faraway islands are included... The current one is also good because it shows proximity to Madagacar, which is mentioned in the article. An entirely new map, based on the current one but much bigger, would probably be the best... FunkMonk (talk) 17:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As Madagascar has a distinct shape, including Africa and the northern half of empty water is probably not necessary - that would allow to reduce the zoom factor significantly. But anyway, the current map is also within FA-criteria (and the island's coordinates are easily verifiable). GermanJoe (talk) 18:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.