Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rupert Downes/archive2

Rupert Downes

 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is about Rupert Downes, an Australian general of World War II. It was part of a series I wrote on senior Australian commanders in World War II. It was previously nominated back in 2011 and closed for lack of reviews. Maybeit can do better this time. Hawkeye7  (discuss)  21:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Image review
 * Don't use fixed px size
 * Removed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  04:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Rupert_Downes.jpg: see WP:WATERMARK
 * No idea what that is about. Uploaded a new version, from the same source, without watermark.
 * File:Desert_Mounted_Corps_HQ_Staff.jpg: when was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Bean and Gullett, Volume XII: Photographic Record of the War (1923), p. 623. Frank Hurley was an official photographer, so Australian government image since creation. Copyright expired after 50 years in 1968, long before URAA. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  04:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support by Zawed
Hope the above helps with getting this to FA. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Lead: The structure of the 1st paragraph seems a little odd to me, with the second sentence out of place chronologically with what follows.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Education and early life section: the title of Downes' thesis has Thymus capitalised but the remainder, apart from the first word, is lower case. Just want to check that is correct.
 * It is indeed capitalised that way in the source, But I see no harm in de-captalising it. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * First World War section: it feels like the 2nd para needs to start with a mention of the commencement of the Gallipoli campaign for a bit of context.
 * Added a bit. It used to be that Australians knew this bit by heart, as it came up every Anzac Day, but I'm not sure about the millennials.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe place his substantive promotion to colonel later, for better flow of chronology. There is also repeated usage of 1916 when it is clear that the timeline hasn't moved into 1917.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * especially the DMS EEF: although it is pretty obvious what it is for, the abbreviation doesn't seem to have been introduced.
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there another source that could be used for the Sinai campaign to reduce the reliance on Downes' own work?
 * Sure. Added a bit. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Have added my support. Zawed (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Harry
Looks to be up to your usual standard; just a few quibbles! HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 16:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * was an Australian soldier, general, surgeon and historian in the first half of the 20th century seems a bit of a long intro. Can we not just say, for example, "was an Australian Army surgeon" for the first sentence and then expand upon it later?
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Should we italicise Australia in the War of 1939–1945? Its article does.
 * Italicised. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Was he a particularly gifted musician?
 * Soon after graduation, Downes enlisted in the Militia it says above he was a member of
 * Added a bit. After Federation the old volunteer militias were dissolved. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * They had three children: do we need the names of non-notable offspring?
 * I always do, as you never know when someone notable might crop up. At the time I wrote the article, I assumed that they were all dead, but Valerie turned out to be alive, and contacted me. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with Zawed that just a sentence or two of context on Gallipoli would be helfpul.
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In the Jordan valley in 1918, however, Downes was confronted with an epidemic not seeing the contradiction implied by the "however"
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Damascus contained over 3,000 sick and wounded Turkish soldiers How did he come to be responsible for the care of Turkish soldiers?
 * Prisoners. Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Time soon vindicated his judgement in Wikipedia's voice, that's editorialising; if it's the opinion of a reliable source, it needs attribution
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Likewise remain his greatest legacy
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * vindicated his judgement; and today the major military hospitals you don't need the semicolon and the "and"
 * Already deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Downes held this post until 22 August 1944 new section so remind us which post
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Now nearly sixty, he then accepted an invitation to write he → Downes
 * Um, okay. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The article was created a long while ago, but I wanted to take it to Featured because I created it. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the delay. Support. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 11:52, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Support Comments from ErnestKrause
Reflecting most of the positive comments made above, I'm wondering if there might be room for expanding the Legacy section with some added details here mostly reflecting what was included in the Wikipedia article for Australia in the War of 1939–1945. If this was to be his magnum opus, then maybe something like an adapted version of the passage from the main article might work as an adjusted CWW. Possibly mention the team of scholars who took over for him, how long it took them to write it, etc. It seems like his great unfinished project. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added a bit about it. The medical series was completed by Allan S. Walker. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:54, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Nice addition. Optionally, I think the very last volume of the series was written by new collaborators in addition to Walker. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes it was. Added a bit more. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  02:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Source review
Footnote numbers refer to this version.
 * The links in [41] and [68] don't work.
 * Repaired. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  11:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What makes TheShipsList a reliable source?
 * Don't remember. Replaced with a newspaper source. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  11:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Those are the only issues I can see. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:50, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
I've copyedited a little; please revert anything you disagree with.
 * I paused at the list of children's names, surprised to see "Major" there as if it were their surname. I realize it's completely accurate, but perhaps to avoid the reader's surprise we could make this something like "They had three children, all given the same middle name as Rupert: Rosemary Major, born in 1914; Valerie Major, born in March 1918; and John Rupert Major, born in 1922"?
 * Sure. Changed as suggested. (Note that Rupert's middle name was his father's first name.) Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "until he returned to Anzac on 11 August": what does "Anzac" refer to here? I know what it stands for, but if it's the cove then shouldn't it be "ANZAC Cove"?  I see instances of both all-caps and title case elsewhere.
 * In this context, it refers to the Anzac Cove lodgement. And yes, it is Anzac Cove (Anzak Koyu). Unfortunately, the meaning of ANZAC has been drummed into schoolchildren, and it is a losing battle to keep changing all-capitals back to the (correct) sentence case. (And yes, we persuaded the Turks to name part of their country after people who came to invade the place.) Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggest linking heat stroke. And I had to think what "defective evaporation" might mean; presumably it means a humid environment in which perspiration does not evaporate well and hence fails to perform its cooling function?  If so I think it could be clearer, particular as the heatstroke article isn't going to explain it as it's not the cause.
 * Linked. The source says: "The cause of heat exhaustion and heat-stroke in the light horse and New Zealand troops was held by Lieutenant-Colonel C. J. Martin to be not only defective evaporation, as has been maintained, but excessive loss combined with grossly insufficient intake of fluid under conditions of heavy muscular effort. The moral is obvious, namely, that unnecessary water discipline may easily become a calamity if not correlated with a due regard for physiological requirements in regard to fluid intake. It is in limitation of the frequency of drinking in relation to the available water supply that water discipline is physiologically sound and militarily valuable."


 * Suggest "third from left" rather than "centre" for the caption of the 1936 picture, as there are an even number of men in the front row.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "The two men had discussed the prospect": what does "prospect" refer to? The prospect of writing about the events of the war?
 * Yes. Clarified this. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "one of the chapters of the Official History": I think this is a reference to the book, not the concept, so italics would be appropriate.
 * There are 15 volumes, three of them comprise the medical series. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see that the paragraphs of the "Interwar years" section can't be ordered strictly chronologically, because the threads they cover extend across different ranges of years. I was going to suggest that the paragraph about John's illness and death be moved up before the previous paragraph, but after thinking about it some more I think it would be better to move it down one paragraph instead.  The paragraph starting "On 20 August 1934" starts with Downes taking a full time position in the army, which would follow naturally after the end of the paragraph about John.
 * Sure. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

That's everything I have; all minor issues. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Support. It would be nice to clarify the "defective evaporation", but the source doesn't allow it. I searched for historical explanations of heat stroke in 19th century books, via Google, and found some relevant quotes, but nothing I think you can use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Support Comments by JennyOz
Hi Hawkeye, another fine bio. Just a few comments and questions...

Lede Education and early life
 * After the war, he wrote articles - haven't mentioned a war yet - could add to "He served in the Gallipoli campaign" of the first world war? Too pedantic?
 * Mentioned. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * of the newly-formed - remove adverbial hyphen
 * Removed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sinai and Palestine Campaign - lowercase c per Gallipoli campaign?
 * Lowercased. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Children's Hospital, Melbourne and - geocomma
 * Added commas. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * but was never able to do so as he was killed in a plane crash in March 1945. - the "never" sounds strange to me, maybe 'but was unable to do so...' or, more simply, 'but was killed in a plane...'
 * Sounds fine to me but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

First World War
 * children of Colonel Major Francis Downes - link father again
 * Linked
 * Roberts' painting - Roberts's per Downes's apos styles?
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Roberts' painting - link The Big Picture (painting)?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Roberts' painting alt "we a sea of people looking on" - with?
 * Deleted stray word. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * the Gallipoli Campaign, - campaign per lede?
 * Lowercased. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * departed Alexandria for on 17 May 1915 - missing word? or remove "for"
 * Added "Anzac". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * to ANZAC Cove for vs he returned to Anzac (I get confused, we use caps for corps but not for place?)
 * Yes. Caps for the corps only.
 * returned to the Anzac lodgement - caps?
 * Caps for the corps only. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Anzac Mounted Division - ANZAC per Mounted Division elsewhere
 * Changed to "Anzac", which is correct. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Es Salt - wlink Es-Salt?
 * Linked. Good find. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * James Martin, [25] and - remove space before ref
 * Removed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * care for the living.The task was - add space
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * For his service in the Sinai and Palestine Campaign - c?
 * Lowercased. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Interwar years
 * surgeon at the Royal Children's Hospital, Melbourne and - comma
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Medical Journal of Australia - wlink
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * of her fund raising efforts - fundraising usually one word? (if not add hyphen as a compound)
 * Concatenated. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Air Board - wlink Air Board (Australia)
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Department of Health - change wlink to Department of Health (1921–1987)
 * Re-linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ethel Bruce - wlink
 * Another good find. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Second World War Death and legacy
 * image Generals Simpson, Blamey, and Morshead pay their respects... - move this photo to Death and legacy section?
 * Moved. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * military hospitals in the capital cities. - maybe add Australia's capital cities
 * Linked to List of Australian capital cities
 * Repatriation Commission - poss pipe to Repatriation Department?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * DMS of Second Army until - the Second per elsewhere?
 * Changed to match. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * increasingly had less and less to do. - "and less" is redundant? (increasingly says it)
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Barron River near Cairns. - add Queensland
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * the third most senior Australian - hyphen/s? (Couldn't see in MOS. I checked online and there are various opinions: don't hyphenate since meaning is clear; hyphenate twice ie third-most-senior because most modifies senior and third modifies most, and Australian is a noun.)
 * The Commonwealth Style Guide says: Don’t use hyphens when the phrase is after the noun in the sentence structure. So no hyphens. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Strange fact: we lost four generals in the First World War, all of whom were killed in action. Also four in the Second, but three of them were killed in air crashes, and one died from natural causes. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That is interesting.(better than poss 14 in a few months) JennyOz (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Paul's Cathedral, Melbourne on - comma
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * editor in chief - hyphenate?
 * The Commonwealth Style Guide says: Most compound nouns don’t need hyphens because people already understand what the words mean together. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is that guide same as old AGPS Style manual for authors, editors and printers? Is this what superseded it? Or is it a different beast? JennyOz (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * quit due to ill-heath in - health
 * Corrected. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * was particularly interested"[75] - full stop
 * Added full stop. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The subject of the Lecture is - lowercase lecture?
 * Lowercased. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Rupert Downes Memorial Lectures - create a redirect for?
 * Created. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sir Albert Coates The Doctor in the Services - wlink Albert Coates (surgeon)
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * D. Trunkey I am Giddy, - link Donald Trunkey (per "I am Giddy")
 * Linked. Well spotted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Refs
 * ref 45 Honours and Awards AWM - has moved?
 * Yeah, moved to Amazon. Many of the documents were lost in the process. Fortunately, this one survived. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ref 49 Downes & Anderson 1942 - page no/s?
 * Added page number. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Walker, Allan S. - author-link
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Category That's me. JennyOz (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * is in cat 'Deaths in tropical cyclones' but Cairns crash in prose doesn't mention a cyclone?
 * Been meaning to double-check that. Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I always enjoy reading your bios and am happy to s'port. JennyOz (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 19:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)