Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Russian battleship Petropavlovsk (1894)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2018.

Russian battleship Petropavlovsk (1894)

 * Nominator(s): Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:37, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Petropavlovsk spent more time under construction than she did in service as she was sunk early in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904–05 after striking a mine. While her loss certainly weakened the Russian position in the Far East, the biggest impact was the death of the Russian squadron commander, the aggressive and charismatic Vice Admiral Stepan Makarov. The article just completed a MilHist ACR and I believe that it meets the FA criteria. As usual, I'm looking for infelicitous prose and any jargon that needs linking or explaining and look forward to working with reviewers who find any such.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:37, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Petropavlovsk_-_NH_84769-A.jpg: when/where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Unknown. Presumably it was a print published by Geiser since it's credited to him and purchased by a naval attaché or somesuch.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:38, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay. The source link gives a 1976 collection date but no publication date, so not sure about the pre-1923 tag here. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Geiser was a commercial photographer, so I expect that he sold prints at some point between when it was taken in 1899 and his death in 1923. AFAIK, his photography company didn't survive his death. Meister, the donor, was a historian of the Russian Navy, so I imagine that he purchased it at some point.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:43, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Support. I've read the article twice and found nothing to prevent supporting. Well-written and comprehensive. Moisejp (talk) 03:49, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Support on prose Comments from Usernameunique
Lead
 * Feels a little bit short in general, and what you just said above introducing this article ("While her loss certainly weakened the Russian position in the Far East, the biggest impact was the death of the Russian squadron commander, the aggressive and charismatic Vice Admiral Stepan Makarov.") should be included.
 * There's not much that I can add to the lede because she had such a short career, with details on her peacetime activities not available in my sources.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:42, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Lemme think on the consequences because I'd have to enumerate all the various ways that his successor was an idiot.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "She participated in suppression". Do you mean the suppression?
 * Indeed.
 * "near Port Arthur." For those that don't know where Port Arthur is/was (me included), can you add a brief clarification (e.g., "Port Arthur, in Northeast China.").
 * Good idea.
 * "Casualties numbered 27 officers and 652 men". So the officers weren't men?
 * Perhaps the Russians were more progressive than most people realize? ;-) Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:42, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Design and description
 * "12-inch guns and the 8-inch guns were replaced". Should probably be a comma after "12-inch guns".
 * I really don't see the point of the comma.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It would be to immediately indicate that "12-inch guns and the 8-inch guns" isn't what was was made to be more powerful and higher-velocity; otherwise you have to get to the words "were replaced" to get clued in to the fact that something different happened to the 8-inch guns. Minor point, though.
 * "Poltava was almost 400 long tons (410 t) overweight". This is the first time you've mentioned Poltava, yet you only imply that she's one of the Petropavlovsk-class ships. Although you said in the lead that there were three ships in the class, this should also be in the body of the article. I'd recommend by leading off with that in "Design and description" and giving their names up front.
 * Sorry, that was a copy-paste error.
 * You still state that Petropavlovsk was one of three ships in the lead, but not in the body.
 * "British firm of Hawthorn Leslie". Is the "of" necessary?
 * Nope.
 * "twin-gun turrets". Is the hyphen necessary?
 * Yep, compound adjective.
 * "the actual rate of fire was half that." I think you mean to say that it was actually 1 round/45 seconds, but this could technically also mean .5 rounds/90 seconds.
 * Remember that rate of fire is actually a fraction so it means the latter or 1/180 seconds.
 * I guess that makes sense, but it's still confusing because "one round every 90 seconds" isn't really in fraction form. I'd still consider to make it clear (n.b. as per my previous comment I thought it was the opposite), but it's a minor point.
 * Think of it in this way: If I do something half as fast, it takes twice as long.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Then say "the actual rate of fire was half as fast", not "half that". Saying "half that" means you're dividing an unspecified something in two, while saying "half that" means you're dividing speed in two.
 * Not sure that I fully agree, but I'm used to these sorts of calculations and may not have the best perspective.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "quick-firing (QF) guns." I'm not sure the parenthetical abbreviation is worth it, considering you only use it once more in the article, and it contributes to a bit of a sea of blue.
 * Blue's a wonderful color; I really don't understand what Wikipedians have against it. ;-) Actually I'd forgotten to add it to the 37 mm guns, so good catch.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Construction
 * "Delayed ... the ship was laid down on 19 May 1892". The delay lacks context unless you add when the ship was ordered (perhaps in the preceding section).
 * Rephrased
 * "[She was] launched on 9 November 1894. Her trials lasted from 1898 to 1899". What did she do from 1894 to 1898?
 * Covered in the above rephrasing.
 * Where? I see what happened before 1892 now, but not what happened from 1894 to 1898.
 * Look at the 2nd sentence of the paragraph.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * So the ship was still under construction when launched (I thought "launched" meant done?), and continued to be for four years afterwards?
 * Yep. Launched means that the hull was watertight, but most of the internal work of installing armament and propulsion machinery remains.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "raised his flag on Petropavlovsk." What does this mean? Does it mean that he personally resided on the ship?
 * It's another way of saying that Petropavlovsk became his flagship.
 * In general, it's a little unclear what the relationship between Skrydlov and Stark was. Was Skrydlov in command of the squadron before Stark?
 * How does it read now?
 * Looks good.

Battle of Port Arthur
 * "the Russian failure to withdraw its troops". I think this should be "Russia's failure to withdraw its troops". Also, this sentence (about activities in 1903) should perhaps go after the discussion of what happened in 1901.
 * "The final straws were ... in Korea." This is a long and somewhat awkward sentence. It would be better with the word "the" between "were" and "news", and with a comma following "in northern Korea".
 * "These caused the Japanese government". How about "These actions caused", because otherwise you're essentially saying "These straws caused", which sounds odd.
 * I adopted all of your suggestions other than the comma, which looks very odd to me in front of "and"
 * "The Pacific Squadron began mooring". Not sure the link to Wiktionary is worth it.
 * Better safe than sorry in an article replete with arcane nautical terms.
 * How about linking directly to moor, then?
 * Found an even better link.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "The Pacific Squadron began mooring in the outer harbor at night as tensions with Japan increased, in order". How about "As tensions with Japan increased, the Pacific Squadron began mooring in the outer harbor at night in order".
 * Good idea.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Sinking
 * Generally, I think you need to add some of the significance of the sinking. You alluded to here—saying the loss of Makarov was a big deal—but it's nowhere in the article. The Japanese also seem to have thought it was a big deal, considering the caption on the illustration, and the fact that several contemporary depictions of it were made.
 * How about a bigger picture? See here or here or here.
 * Upgraded the existing image.
 * "taking 27 officers and 652 men, including Makarov and the war artist Vasily Vereshchagin, with her." How about "taking with her..." Also, what about some background on why Vereshchagin was on the ship?
 * I wish I knew; that bit was added by a Russian-reading editor, not me.
 * "Seven officers and 73 men were rescued." Here and above, same point about officers also being men.
 * Ironically, that's straight from my source.
 * "Japanese divers identified his remains inside the wreck of Petropavlovsk". What were Japanese divers doing down there, and why not Russian divers? Does the source say where in the ship his remains were found?
 * The Japanese conquered Port Arthur during the war and kept it in the territorial settlement. No idea where his body was as that's from a Russian-language source.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Overall
 * Looks pretty good, and most of the points above are fairly minor and discretionary. The main things are 1) the short lead, 2) the lack of discussion of the significance of the sinking (and Makarov's death), and to a lesser extent 3) the lack of a sentence giving the names of the other ships in the class. --Usernameunique (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your thorough review. I don't think that the names of the other ships in the class is really necessary as I've corrected the mistake that led to one of them being mentioned without an explanation. Not sure that I can do much with the short lede as adding technical details there would only be redundant to the description and not a summary. Still thinking about adding something on the significance.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No problem. Replies are above; I think the only thing you didn't respond to was the suggestion of a comma after "12-inch guns". Just noticed one other small thing: why does "laid down" link to keel? Did you mean to link to keel laying? Adding the significance should also take care of the short lead, to an extent. Other things you could consider adding there are the date she was laid down, and a bit more about her activities in the Battle of Port Arthur. --Usernameunique (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Good catch on Keel; I'd bet that the second word was accidentally deleted. Still thinking on adding the significance.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * A few more responses above; take your time on significance. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit/clarification above. Just ping me whenever you add the part about the significance and I'll check that out, and give the article another look over. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , gave the article a final read through, and now support. Made a minor change (revert if you don't like). Also, I wonder about the death toll. The artist wasn't an officer or an enlisted man, was he? So did 677 men die (27 + 651 + 1), or 678 (27 + 652 + 1)? --Usernameunique (talk) 20:43, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting question, but one I don't have an answer to as my sources don't address the issue. Thanks for your very thorough review.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:49, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Sources review
It has become more or less standard for ISBNs in featured articles to be rendered in consistent 13-digit form. Thus, Corbett= 978-1-55750-129-5; Kowner= 978-0-8108-4927-3; Silverstone= 978-0-88254-979-8; Westwood= 978-0-88706-191-2. Otherwise, sources are in good order and of the appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 15:14, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking them up for me, but I'll stick the original ISBNs.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:38, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Comments Support from Parsecboy

 * Article started with a mix of Am and Br Eng, so no action needed here.
 * No dupe links
 * "one each forward and one aft" - I think the "each" is unnecessary
 * Any idea what type of 37mm guns? I'd guess either Hotchkiss or Maxims
 * I'd never even thought to check.
 * I think the idea of the significance of her loss is good - I don't think you need a litany of his successors' failings, just something along the lines of "The death of Makarov robbed the Pacific Squadron of its ablest commander - Vitgeft lacked his aggressiveness and Ukhtomsky his competence." Parsecboy (talk) 14:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I couldn't source anything so succinct, but I cobbled something together. Lemme know what y'all think.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Ping--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:50, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks good now, happy to support. Parsecboy (talk) 20:48, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Support from PM
I reviewed this in detail when it recently went through Milhist A-Class review, and have looked over the changes made since. I believe it meets the FA criteria. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Iazyges
Support, I was a part of the A-Class review, and can find no additional problems. Iazyges  Consermonor   Opus meum  02:17, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Support from The ed17
Made a few copyedits. Great job! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 04:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Sarastro (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.