Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ruth Norman/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 17:19, 11 September 2012.

Ruth Norman

 * Nominator(s): Mark Arsten (talk) 01:27, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

One of the few examples of women who have led new religious movements, Ruth Norman overcame a challenging life to become the best dressed religious leader in the U.S. She made several predictions about the dates of alien visitations and broke new ground in her creative explanations for the failure of said predictions. She was a harmless lady though, unlike some others who started UFO religions. Anyway, this article has been GA reviewed, copyedited, and thoroughly peer reviewed. Hopefully my changes in response to the feedback have made this a top-quality article. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:27, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comments from Crisco 1492
 * Disclosure: I did the GA review.


 * Why not link Ernest Norman in the lede?
 * In 1972, Ruth Norman began publishing Tesla Speaks, a series of messages that she said were given to her by Nikola Tesla from his dwelling in outer space." - Why not "In 1972, Ruth Norman began publishing Tesla Speaks, a series of messages that she said were given to her by American inventor and engineer Nikola Tesla from his dwelling in outer space; she stated that messages from scientists Albert Einstein and Louis Pasteur were channeled through Tesla" or something similar?
 * Otherwise the changes since my review look good.
 * I am satisfied with the images
 * Not much at all from me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:57, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was quick. I feel band about taking so long to review your articles now :) Alright, well, I've tried to remedy the two issues you pointed out above. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So you're a tuba? Support. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL, it's been a long day... thanks for the support. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment "by the Archangel Raphiel." Should that be Raphael, or is it correct? Othewise excellent. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 13:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, now after discovering Michiel, I am convinced that it is correct. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 13:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I put a hidden [sic] in. For some reason, the group insisted that angel names end in "iel" (so that they match "Uriel"). Mark Arsten (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments: Overall, this looks very good. I commented extensively in the PR and most of my concerns there have been addressed. On reading it again, I have noticed a few prose issues. There is nothing glaring, but there is a slight lack of flow and some cumbersome sentences. Parts just need to be tidied up and a little redundancy removed.I have copy-edited it slightly, and feel free to revert anything I have messed up, and have noted some of my prose concerns. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "Claim", "stated" and "believe" seem to crop up quite a lot, but I'm not sure there is a way around that. Also, as mentioned in the PR, perhaps a little too much "students" and "followers",
 * Ok, I tried to cut down on the use of those. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there are several times when we could lose "that" from some sentences.
 * I've done away with a few. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "He stated that he channeled historical figures…": A little inelegant with "he…he", but not sure I can think of a better way of phrasing.
 * I took a stab at it. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "and told of people's past lives": Ambiguous. This could mean just going around talking about random people's past lives. Presumably it was more of a "one-on-one" consultation. Maybe "told people of their past lives".
 * Done. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "spiritual journeys": Maybe explain a little more in the lead what this means.
 * Added a little more detail for clarity. Let me know if you think it needs more. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Although she had stated that she would live to see the extraterrestrials' landing in 2001, she died in 1993.": Maybe "Despite her predictions that she would live to see the extraterrestrials land, Norman died in 1993."
 * Ok, done. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Unarius continued to operate after her death, adapting to her loss by forming a board of directors and spiritualizing her predictions about alien landings."
 * Removed. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "In her early to mid-teen years…": Not the best phrasing; maybe make it more precise, like "Between the ages of X and Y…"
 * Instead of more precise, I went more general "As a teenager..." Hope this works. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Ernest believed that he channeled messages from historical figures and received communications from extraterrestrials.": Could these be brought closer together; for example "Ernest believed he could communicate with both extraterrestrials and historical figures [channeling messages from them (? did he do this for both of them)]".
 * Yes, changed. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Using this ability, she helped him record the information he channeled in books…": Seems a slightly grand way to state that she typed his books for him! There must be a simpler way to state this.
 * Tried to simplify a bit. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Ernest also discussed the scientific knowledge of the inhabitants of other worlds.[17] The couple also discussed revelations…": Discussed…discussed. Also, not quite sure what "discussed the scientific knowledge of the inhabitants of other worlds" means here. And possibly we could lose "of the inhabitants".
 * I tried to fix this. Basically, he talked about scientific discoveries that had taken place on other planets. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "and she determined that she was spiritually an archangel named Uriel": Again, not quite right, this sentence, but can't think of an alternative.
 * Tried to condense a bit for flow. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I asked at the PR about Tesla, but may not have made myself clear. He just seems a slightly random scientist to chose, in comparison to Einstein. Why did he "contact" her? What was the attraction?
 * Ahh, yes, sorry about that. It took me a while, but I finally found a good source that explained why--there were rumors that Tesla was interested in some pseudoscience topics that appealed to the Normans. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:10, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "In 1973, she stated that she had experienced a spiritual marriage…": Again, this sentence does not really flow.
 * I rephrased it, hopefully an improvement. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "She and Spiegel recorded the events of the ceremony over several days…": Recorded how, and why did it take several days?
 * I rephrased a bit, since the source doesn't say how they recorded it. As to why it took several days, I have no idea. Perhaps celestial weddings take longer than those on Earth? There were apparently over 30,000 angels there, so the receiving line alone must have taken forever :) Mark Arsten (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "In her view, there were many levels of beings in the universe, and humans were the lowest.": This slightly breaks the narrative of the "Space Brothers".
 * Moved it to a footnote. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "The students sometimes acted out scenes from their previous incarnations, productions which the group filmed.[41] Participants found these experiences to be therapeutic, citing this effect as proof that the past-life events were real.": Slightly uncomfortable. Maybe "The students sometimes acted out and filmed scenes from their previous incarnations, an experience that participants found therapeutic; they cited this benefit as proof that the events were real."
 * Done. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "she stated that the Space Brothers had said that it was acceptable": Again, a little clumsy. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rephrased a bit, hope it's clearer now. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the comments, you've been a tremendous help thus far. I've started working my way through, will try to get to all of them this weekend. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I got them all now. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Support: I'm happy to support now, and all the changes look good. I think the prose could possibly still be tightened in places, but it's certainly good enough to meet the criteria. Just a couple of final nit-picks. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "He engaged in channeling, telling people of their past lives, and attempts at communication with extraterrestrials.": As written, this reads like he was telling people of his attempts at communication. Is this the intended meaning?
 * "Ernest also spoke of scientific advancements of other worlds": Not sure about this. Maybe "the scientific advancements", or "of scientific advances made by other worlds"? Sarastro1 (talk) 18:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your help thus far, the article is much improved by your comments. I think I've taken care of the last two points. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support and image check Support and images fine. Pumpkin Sky   talk  23:06, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and what a great couple of images they are :) Mark Arsten (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support and comments Only in California... Nice work, I just made two notes reading through  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  08:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ruth spent time with her as well &mdash; in the UK we would say "had access", but I don't know if that's a phrase used in the US?
 * variety of fields &mdash; I prefer "jobs"  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  08:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support, I used both of your suggestions since they were both simpler than what I had. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:57, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.