Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ryan Leaf/archive1

Ryan Leaf
Self-Nom I been working in the article since June. It is a WP:GA and it been though a peer review in August. I would try to fix any concerns you guys have. One last comment, I can't find a free image for Leaf, so I have to use a fair use image. I would avoid placing the article in the front page until a free image can be found if promoted. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 00:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. Object. I think it's a fairly good article, but I have a few concerns:
 * "College career" says that his 33 touchdowns was a "record." Was it a school, conference, season, NCAA or some other kind of record?
 * Fixed, from same sitation as #6 Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The third paragraph under College career needs some citations.
 * I deleted the whole paragraph as PoV in a way Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * First paragraph, second and third sentences of "1998 Draft" need citations.
 * Added sitation for the third sentence, same citation can be used for the second, it was a trade with the Cardinals. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Last sentence of the first paragraph in the "NFL Career-San Diego Chargers" section needs a citation.
 * Removed sentence as irrelvant, and not much info found, I was planning to find out if the Manning article on wikipedia has the info and a valid ciation for it but it didn't which was strange. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A lot of use of the word "get" as a verb (When Harbaugh got injured...).
 * Partically fixed, not strong copyeditor. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Subsequent career and retirement", first paragraph, needs a citation and the last sentence in the second paragraph of the same section needs a citation.
 * done for both. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Personal life and legacy", first paragraph, last sentence, needs a citation.
 * Done, I used an example where it is used, there are over 1,000 more in google. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Cla68 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Object - per Cla68 above. Also:
 * However, despite his athleticism, his time as a pro was short and marked by injuries and failure, which according to critics was largely due to his immaturity, arrogance, and poor work ethic. Leaf is widely considered one of the biggest busts in NFL history.[3] Ouch! Might want use some more sources that are cited later in the article in Personal life and legacy if you're going to use the phrase "widely considered". Also, where are the references for those critics?
 * That one is hard, it probaly makes me use multiple of those refs at once, Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Those stats in the first paragraph of the college career section needs some citations.
 * Will add from the six ref. Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Also in that same paragraph, two sentences in a row start with "He also".
 * Fixed Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ...the clock literally ran out on Washington State. That would make for a real interesting game! Let's avoid misusing the word "literally".
 * Fixed Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * the Heisman Trophy, which is given annually to the best college football player. Could use some qualification there on what the Heisman is, as I'm sure there's usually a lot of contention over whether or not a recipient really is the "best" college football player. :) That, or just delete the last part of that sentence.
 * Explained by User:Stilgar135 Jaranda wat's sup 03:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Gzkn 03:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Spotty and inconsistent prose, the worst of which is far from meeting criteria 1a. And remember, the passive tense is avoided by good writers. :)
 * Changed to Support after the CE by Cla68. Still would like to see a different source for Leaf is widely considered one of the biggest busts in NFL history such as the ESPN one.
 * Will fix the citation parts, I fixed some, I had the same problem with the Selena FAC which I don't know how it passed, can't copyedit for my life and can't find copyeditors. I disagree with the Heisman Trophy part though, it's the best award a player can get in college football. The detail someone can find in the regular article. Also I'll likely delete the critics part, as it's many different refs put into one, can't find the exact ref that describe all three. The bust part can be found in most refs. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I placed a copyedit tag on the top of the page, the tag is mostly useless though as it takes months at times to find one. Jaranda wat's sup 04:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't give up, it's almost there. Add the citations that we mentioned, find someone to copyedit it for you, and that might do it. Cla68 13:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaranda, I'd do it if I weren;t so bad at it, but there are a couple people who volunteered at WP:1FAPQ to do copyediting stuff, if you left a note on their talk pages, you might have some luck. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Object per the following two concerns: See additional comments below.
 * "The sports network ESPN listed Leaf first on their list of the 25 Biggest Sports Flops between 1979-2004". There is a citation listed after this statement in the "personal life and legacy" section, but the citation is a link to Pro Football Weekly that doesn't mention anything about ESPN or Ryan Leaf being one of the 25 biggest sports flops.
 * It had the ESPN ref, but with ref name was the same as another one, so fixed. Jaranda wat's sup 21:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Leaf is widely considered one of the biggest busts in NFL history" in the introductory paragraph. This is a pretty strong statement to make about a living person, so I'd definitely like to see a better citation on that claim than a link to a staff reporter's column in the Cincinnati Post which mentions Ryan Leaf only in a couple of the paragraphs. Neil916 (Talk) 10:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In British English we don't use the word "bust" in this context (at least not that I'm aware of). I understand it from the context but didn't have a clue what you were talking about. A "bust" is a pair of breasts or being arrested! I appreciate that you're quoting a source directly, otherwise I'd ask for an alternate word to be used. --kingboyk 18:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Every ref has Leaf has a bust, no way I'm placing a million refs on that one sentence, the ESPN one above can be used as a ref. Jaranda wat's sup 21:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't find a better ref, so I added the ESPN one, whoever reaches number one in that list must be a all-time bust, as ESPN one of the most reliable sources of sports there is. There is also over 171,000 google hits on Leaf and bust. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The citation doesn't support the claim. It would be like citing a claim like "Rasheed Wallace is widely considered to be the biggest time-bomb in the NBA" based upon this citation .  Either find an unbiased source supporting the claim (I doubt you'll find one) or tone it down quite a bit.  The same issue goes for the previous sentence in that same paragraph: "However, despite his athleticism, his time as a pro was short and marked by injuries and failure, which according to critics was largely due to his immaturity, arrogance, and poor work ethic.".  The critics' claim isn't supported with a citation, nor is it addressed later in the article.   As a whole, the article still seems too POV for me, too much of a Leaf-bashing article.  Why, for example, in the last paragraph of the San Diego Chargers history, is "wins" in quotation marks?   What's the difference between a win and a "win"? I'm no fan of Ryan Leaf, and I'm sorry to object so strenuously given the amount of effort you've obviously put in, but Wikipedia articles, especially featured articles, need to remain factual and unbiased, and this article needs more work to reach that point.  This will be a difficult task, since Leaf made few friends and many enemies in the media, so finding unbiased sources is definitely going to take more than a google search.Neil916 (Talk) 18:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know how win got in quotes so I fixed it. The immaturity, arrogance, and poor work ethic takes a few refs, mostly the same refs used in the article, will reword, but the main problem with Leaf is that he is only known for being a bust, espcially being the second pick in 98 draft, I personally doubt the refs are biaed though. Jaranda wat's sup 19:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed both sentences. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 02:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * We're getting closer. Sorry to drag my feet about this, but the article as it reads still comes across as very anti-Leaf.  The article doesn't need to nominate him for sainthood, but it needs to stick to the facts and trim out the judgmental verbage.  Undoubtedly, many of those opinions were found in the original sources you use, but you need to be neutral, whereas a sports columnist can just pile on the judgement.  Some examples, (a non-exhaustive list due to a short time window I have for WP at the moment): (bolded words and phrases are examples of where POV is coming through)
 * However, despite his athleticism, his time as a pro was short and marked by injuries and failure.
 * Since that time, Manning has become a star player and a possible Hall of Famer for the Colts, while Leaf's short career was spotted with poor game play and off-field antics.
 * San Diego's high hopes for Leaf were soon dashed, as his rookie season was marked by bad performances
 * But, in the third game of the season, he completed only one of fifteen passes for a mere four yards and fumbled three times in a loss against the Kansas City Chiefs.
 * Fixed Jaranda wat's sup 01:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Leaf started the first two games of the 2000 season, completing less than half of his pass attempts and throwing for five interceptions and only one touchdown.
 * Fixed Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * When backup Moses Moreno went down with a strained knee ligament, the Chargers were forced to play Leaf more.
 * Fixed Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Following more poor performances and injury problems, he was released by the Chargers following the season, with a record of only four wins as a starter in three seasons.
 * Will try to rephase Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * After mediocre performances in the Buccanneers's four preseason games, the club asked Leaf to accept a lower salary
 * Leaf's career quarterback rating was 50.00, a very low number—the league average between 2000 and 2003 was 78.9.
 * I don't see a NPOV problem there, it's compares his quarterback rating Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Leaf is considered one of the biggest disappointments in sports history.
 * Only reason why he is known for. Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Basically, there's a big difference between calling someone a failure and stating that his success on the field did not meet the expectations of sports analysts and the fans.


 * Also, consider the following paragraph:


 * In February 2001, Leaf married one of the Chargers cheerleaders, Nicole. They separated two years later and divorced soon after.[27] As of February 2005, Leaf was enrolled in a sports management class called Media Relations at Washington State.[28] He graduated with a bachelor's degree in arts and humanities in May 2005.[29] His brother, Brady Leaf is currently a junior quarterback for the University of Oregon.[30]
 * You have essentially four unrelated ideas put into one sentence. It doesn't flow and just reads like a mish-mash of random facts that didn't fit anywhere else.  Also, it implies that he got a bachelor's degree just for taking one class in media relations. Neil916 (Talk) 00:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Will try to fix that paragraph, the only problem is that Leaf is only known for being one of the well known failures in National Football League history, nothing else. I personally think it's as much as it gets to NPOV, neutral, and factual as possible, if all criticism is removed on Leaf, the article would be a stub then. Jaranda wat's sup 02:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know he was a failure. But you can't say that he was a failure, you need to stick to the facts only.  Calling him a failure is expressing your opinion.  Here's an example (numbers made up, of course): "In his first year as a pro, Leaf had a passing rating of 32.  Between 1985 and 2005, the average passer rating for first year quarterbacks in the NFL was 72, with 90% of rookies exceeding a rating of 50.  Only one quarterback, Joe Schmoe, a tenth-round draft pick from Squashed Armadillo University, had a lower rating during that period."  or,  "Coach Rogers commented after the game that he didn't really want to continue playing Leaf at quarterback, but the injury situation left him no choice."   Nothing but facts, but the reader gets to make up his own mind, and conclude, of course, that he was a failure.  Show me, don't tell me.  My opinion is that the article still has quite a ways to go, and that it's not the best it could be.  But, judging by the lack of agreement from other reviewers, I'm the only one who feels that way, so take it for what it's worth.   Neil916 (Talk) 06:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support well written, well referenced. - Mike | Talk 05:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak object well-referenced, concise and well-organized. But I don't think it's really brilliant prose. I have done a bit of copyediting but it still needs improvements in terms of flow. Too many short sentences, too many "Leaf did this. Then Leaf did that". But should make it eventually. Pascal.Tesson 19:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Please find someone who's fresh to the topic to copy-edit it. Locate copy-editors by researching the edit history pages of similar articles, esp. FAs. Tony 12:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Object—not the required "professional" standard of prose. For example:
 * "After having led his high school,..."—Spot the redundant word.
 * "67 year Rose Bowl drought"—I think American editors would insist on a hyphen after "67".
 * " He finished third in voting, behind winner Charles Woodson of Michigan, and fellow quarterback Peyton Manning of Tennessee"—Remove comma after "Michigan". Yet there's a shortage of commas overall.
 * "He also was selected as"—awkward syntax.
 * "But, in the third game of the season, he completed one of fifteen passes"—No, start with "However,". It would be nice to see all numbers of two or more digits numericalised.
 * Ellision dots need spaces either side unless begun by a real stop in the quote: "Don't...talk to me".
 * "After news of Leaf's retirement in 2002, Harrison was quoted as saying,"—"After hearing news of"?

I withdraw, been too busy lately that I been ignoring the FAC, likely won't work on the article til chrismas break, if lucky Thanks anyways Jaranda wat's sup 17:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)