Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:39, 4 June 2010.

SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand

 * Nominator(s): Buggie111 (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC), White Shadows (talk) Parsecboy (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because I really think that it is the quality that is deservant of a bronze star. I freshly expanded this from stubhood through DYK, GA and a Milhist ACR, and think I'm ready. User:White Shadows will also be working on most of this, especially the second half after I leave on my trip. Also note that this is my and White Shadows's first FAC, so if someone with experience could guide us along, it would be fine. Buggie111 (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There should be no dabs, all the images have alt text and have correct copywrite licences. Everything is cited (even in Russian in one case) and the entire article complies with MOS. If there really is anything that I left out, just let us know and I (or the main contributor, Buggie111) will fix it. Thanks.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 23:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments: Welcome to FAC! I've got a few suggestions for improving your article, which you are free to argue with and please help reduce backlog by reviewing other articles too. You've obviously spent some time on this, and a lot of great work has been done. I don't think it's an FA - yet. However, I'm commenting instead of Opposing because I think you can fix the article's issues in time to pass. Good luck, and thanks for all your work so far! Feel free to ping me if you have questions or comments on my review. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Only the first word in a section heading should be capitalized (unless there are proper nouns)
 * Don't see anything now Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Check US vs UK spelling and conventions
 * Are you saying that this article switches back and forth, or has to use a specific one that it doesn't? I can fix it in twelve hours if it's the former, but if it's the latter, I don't see any problems
 * Switches back and forth. I think it's mostly UK (?), but there are definitely some Americanisms
 * I'll go with U.K., for the sake of laziness
 * Is it done? Pointers on where to fix? Buggie111 (talk) 13:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Still some spelling issues, particularly with "or" vs "our". You should also consider broader conventions, in particular the variation in date format and the use of slightly different terminology.
 * Hopefully done, but I can't do much in spelling. Buggie111 (talk) 17:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Try to avoid sandwiching images and infoboxes
 * Toughee. I'll get to work.
 * Done.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not crazy about the prose - lots of short stubby sentences, could use a good copy-editing, lack of clarity in places. I'll try to do some light editing in a couple of days, but a few extra sets of eyes would help
 * Write with a non-specialist reader in mind - cut down on jargon (especially in the lead), clarify terms and concepts where necessary
 * I've submited a request at WP:GOCE, so maybe that will help this and the above issue.
 * Did my linking in the lead help said non-specialist?
 * Better, but could still use clarification. Also, avoid linking the same term multiple times - your linking in the lead has led to that sort of overlinking
 * Some of the technical details differ between the text and the infobox - double-check, and keep terminology consistent
 * Will do now.
 * Done. Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Draft" vs "Draught" - are these the same thing? Also, keep significant figures equal (15,845.5 is not the same as 15,845)
 * ISBN for Koburger and Hore? Location for Koburger, Miller and Vego?
 * Will do if Google books is helpful.
 * Done by WS, me thinks.Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Distinguish between the two Hore books in footnotes
 * Sure.
 * Done by someone else.Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Need consistent formatting in References
 * Don't get your point. Please reexplain?
 * I understand what you were talking about. I've fixed it but if there are any more issues, just tell me.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Citations with multiple pages should use "pp." instead of "p."
 * Done, only two instances. Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, compare the dates on the two NYT articles
 * I'm guessing that neither of you speak Russian? Complete citations for Russian sources will thus be harder to get, but they're worth it
 * What do you mean by complete? I speek it, but I would like some cliarification
 * Well, it seems that the Russian citations have disappeared...but my point was that you needed at minimum to include publisher information, and author and date where available (moot point now).
 * Halpern or Haplern?
 * WP:GOCE, but will try to do earlier.
 * Done. That was easy, its Halpern.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 20:00 in what time zone?
 * Local time, I think?
 * Yes it's local time. However I'm going to have to argue against adding that into the text. It just seems a little odd to add it in the sentence and most people would assume that the time would be local time. If I'm wrong please correct me.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it's not clear what local time would be. Is the ship at Pola? Brindisi? Somewhere at sea? I would argue that saying "20:00 GMT" (or whatever the time zone may be) is not that odd.
 * Removed. Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Check for typos please - who's "Ferdinad"? Where is "Austro-Hungary"
 * See above GOCE, but will do now.
 * Done.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "The Italian fleet was completely unprepared for hostilities" - source?
 * Will try to do. Buggie111 (talk) 04:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can't find anything. Removed. Buggie111 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I am fluent in Russian, and I won't be able to attend to these immedietly as I'm finishing Reshadieh class battleship. Buggie111 (talk) 03:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that FAC's are more important than orking on a stub or start class article Buggie! Anyway, I'll try to take a look at Google books to find the missing citiaion info that you requested. Hoever when I read over Vego, I could not find where it was published...-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Worldcat is your friend for finding this stuff; Google Books never has publishing location or the OCLCs. I've fixed up the bibliography. Parsecboy (talk) 11:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * When I was 90% done! Buggie111 (talk) 13:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I have some minor concerns about wording, but the article is still being edited actively; I better wait until you guys are done before I give it another run-through. - Dank (push to talk) 15:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah nevermind, Ruth got it. - Dank (push to talk) 00:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources issues: All sources look good. A few very minor issues:- Brianboulton (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 4: Should be The New York Times not New York Times
 * Done.
 * REf 16: title could be more informative, e.g. Zrinyi in Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships.
 * Done.
 * Unnecesary linking of "London" in the Hore books
 * Done.
 * Publisher location missing from the Miller book
 * "London" repeated in the Vego book details
 * Done

Other issues
 * The article includes an absurdity that was recently corrected in the SMS Helgoland article: (German: "His Majesty's ship Archduke Franz Ferdinand"). The language is clearly English.
 * Fixed per previous discussion on your talk page. - Dank (push to talk) 16:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The article appears to be quite short (Helgoland is at least 2½ times as long). Are you sure the article is comprehensive?
 * Personally, I think that Helgoland and other German ships attract more attention than the dual-monarchy. Id you check the references section of helgoland you'll se a dizen books titled History of German battleships/battlecruisers or somthing to that tune. Not so many people write about the AUH navy. Also, the fight in the mediterranean was much of a stalemate, whilst the North Sea was a lot more active. Hope this answers your question. Buggie111 (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine as far as I am concerned (I am not well informed on this subject) Brianboulton (talk) 18:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Images - On what basis is File:Flag_of_Italy_(1861-1946)_crowned.svg deemed to be licensed creative commons? Fasach Nua (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Um...what do you mean? How is it not under CC? (Is a bit confused)-- White Shadows you're breaking up 22:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The policy of Wikipedia is that the burden of evidence lies with the editor who asserts that something, such as media being licensed under CC, to prove it prove it Fasach Nua (talk) 05:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I know. I initially did not understand what you ment in your question at first. Sorry. And Parsec has asked the same question over at commons so we'll see what comes out of the discussion there.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you please link the discussion at commons? Fasach Nua (talk) 17:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Heres the vferdict. If Flanker made it, like someone made the flag of croats and serbs from a different model on the web, than it's fine, if not, then it's pd-old. Discussion. Buggie111 (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussion can be found here. Flanker has confirmed that s/he created the flag based on the textual requirements of the flag, so it is indeed properly licensed. Parsecboy (talk) 22:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that solves the imageing issues. So what have we not addressed yet? Is the article in British English yet (for instance)?-- White Shadows you're breaking up 22:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Oppose
 * How can the fundamental reference on the Austro-Hungarian Navy not have been consulted? Anthony Eugene Sokol's Imperial and Royal Austro-Hungarian Navy. There are five copies available within 100 miles of me so it's not like it's particularly rare.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:16, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Your opposition is solely based off of the lack of one book? Tell me if I'm wrong but that does not seem like a valid reason to oppose anything.....-- White Shadows you're breaking up 21:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This omission would fail the article based on criteria 1c. In turn that may also fail it on criteria 1b. You shouldn't be upset about it and instead learn to utilize and find all relevant sources on the subject. Brad (talk) 01:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It's certainly a valid reason to oppose an article for Featured status. As Sturm has pointed out, this book should be used in the article. It's available at OSU, but it's stored in the Book Depository; I've requested it, but it may take a couple of days for it to come in. Parsecboy (talk) 02:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Will you be able to include it as a reference in time for this FAC to pass?-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I should be able to, the FAC has only been open for a week. Parsecboy (talk) 11:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose This article is in good shape, but needs some more work to meet the FA criteria:
 * I agree that not using the major source on this topic is grounds for the article not meeting the FA criteria
 * This may also be reflected in the current length of the article, which does seem a bit short, even allowing for the ship's short and undistinguished career. It might be worth trying to find German or Austrian editors to see if there are any German-language sources which can also be used if the English-language sources are lacking in detail.
 * "where her sister ships would be built six months later" is a bit inaccurate (and is contradicted by the last sentence of the paragraph) and doesn't capture the fact that it took a long time to build these complex ships
 * I've cut that. Parsecboy (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "A heavy secondary battery included" - are there any guns not mentioned in the article? If not, the qualifier "included" isn't needed
 * Removed and reworded. Parsecboy (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There are some gaps in the chronology - is it possible to say anything about what she was doing during the period June 1910-1912? Details on 1913 and 1914 are very sketchy - during what periods did she take part in patrols in the Ionian Sea?
 * Hopefully the Sokol book will be able to clear this up. Parsecboy (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The operation in the Ionian Sea seemed to be more than just a "protest" if it involved blockading the coast
 * "By 1913, the four new dreadnoughts of the Tegetthoff class entered into active service with the fleet" contradicts the article on that class of ships, which states that only two of the four ships had been commissioned by 1913
 * The article originally stated as much when I wrote that section, but it had been altered in the meantime. I have since reverted it. Parsecboy (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Do we know what the effect of sitting at anchor at Pola had on the ship's crew? They must have been pretty miserable.
 * I've seen nothing on these ships; there was the 1918 revolt in Cattaro, though that was limited to a few armored cruisers. Most of the other ships remained loyal to the government and assisted in suppressing the mutiny. Parsecboy (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What happened to the ship between being taken into Italian custody in 1919 and being scrapped seven years later?
 * I would imagine nothing. By that time she was very outdated and was probably not worth the coal to send her out to sea. I understand that more info is needed and we at least need an Italian port city for her so hopefully Parsec can find that in the book he ordered. If not then I'll go off to google books and try to find a snippet that says the city name and any other info available.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 20:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * While the article is generally well written, some of its prose is a bit awkward and needs to be copy edited to reach FA level (for example, "She was launched from the slipway...", "she was towed to the harbor in Muggia...", "Austro-Hungarian ships bombarded that coast and then Montenegro unmolested...", " The Austro-Hungarian naval defense was then designed around this idea") Nick-D (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that "unmolested" is a bit dramatic (and too anthropomorphic for me, but YMMV), and "designed around this idea" is clear (so I left it alone) but not "robust"; I'll rewrite Parsecboy got it. With the first two, are you objecting to the passive voice?  Active voice would require identifying the tugboat that towed her; both seem fine to me, although it wouldn't hurt to combine the first two sentences in that section. - Dank (push to talk) 15:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments I'd support on FA criteria 1a, 1d, 2a, 2b and 3. However, this is secondary to concerns about 1c, hence 1b and 4 raised above.
 * Please check "...and she was commissioned into the fleet.[1]Radetzky followed six months later on January 15..."
 * Fixed. Let us know if there still needs to be some re-wording.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 10:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe that when you say "Haus therefore enacted a strategy based on mines and submarines designed to reduce the numerical superiority of the Allied navies", you mean that Haus' intention was to "...neutralise the numerical superiority...". Exact wording is left to your discretion.
 * Otherwise clear and concise. Perhaps a little too concise. Doug (talk) 02:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.