Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Saint Vincent Beer/archive1

Saint Vincent Beer

 * Nominator(s): Guerillero  Parlez Moi 22:06, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a pre-prohibition brewery run by monastery that generated quite a bit of controversy. I went through a GA review by and then a peer review by  and. After doing another read over, I think it is ready for you all. Thank you to my reviewers for getting it to this point. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:06, 1 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Image review for the lead image, if all you did is cropped a public domain image and added some lines and text, these modifications are certainly below the threshold of originality in US law to enable a copyright claim; compare the examples at c:COM:TOO US (t &#183; c)  buidhe  22:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Whatever c:COM:TOO US means, that you don't put into graspable, actionable, English, nor does the policy page. But public domain? Ceoil (talk) 22:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Buidhe: I think it is just subject to copyright protection because it "possess[es] some creative spark". I made creative decisions by choosing what to label, what not to label, the wording of the labels, and the placement of the labels based on my decade of experience as a professional cartographer. I would agree with you if just labeled the ruins. -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 12:54, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Ceoil
I do like beer and monastery history so great to see this. Am re-reading, and while inclining towards promotion have things to say. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 1 May 2022 (UTC) Continuing:
 * Maybe the "Beer Fuss" and "golden age of Saint Vincent Beer" don't actually exist outside of the imaginations of the brewery's promotors
 * A lot of the sentences are staccato, eg "Wimmer agreed to close the tavern but sought to retain the brewery.[1] O'Connor refused to make the community that Wimmer founded a priory.[3] Wimmer appealed to Pope Pius IX during a trip to Rome, but was denied.[3] "
 * There are many instances of jarring alliteration, eg " pointing to the permission" etc
 * ''started pressuring the monastery to stop" - began to pressure
 * Watch capitalisation -  Saint Vincent Archabbey, Seminary, and College
 * Zurcher skewered the archabbey for brewing Saint Vincent Beer instead of joining the temperance movement, - the placement of "skewered " here is baffling and hints at a calculation that is not explained. Also for brewing Saint Vincent B the beer
 * I think this is almost good to go, after you meet my demands. Ceoil (talk) 10:41, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ceoil:
 * Lamendola, Oetgen, and Klein all speak of the "beer fuss" as a thing. Klein is the most attached to the idea of a golden age. Lamendola refers to it as the "so called golden age." Oetgen makes no mention of it. I do get your point. The archabbey would be considered to be nanobrewery today due to how little beer was actually produced.
 * I fixed that section.
 * Alliterations are awesome! I went looking for weird wordings
 * Fixed
 * Fixed
 * There isn't a deeper meaning. Switched to the more common "criticized"
 * -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 18:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lead The beer was initially produced at the archabbey in 1856 and had peaked to a demand of around 1,110 barrels by 1891. - say why early on why it became popular (luck, taste, well placed backers, etc)
 * Lead external sale by 1900 - to where and what proportion was this consuming total output
 * There is is lot more context in the articles's body than the lead of the article re the closure, maybe expand the lead, eg who is Aurelius Stehle
 * but Michael O'Connor, the Bishop of Pittsburgh, objected to monk ownership - on what legal and presumably moral grounds
 * I relocated The drink was a young dark, hoppy Bavarian-style beer.[5] Its grain was harvested ... as best as could, but is still a stray factoid as currently placed; can you better place in narrative
 * The actualities, reasons and wider drivers of the unlinked "Beer Fuss" are not made clear. Ceoil (talk) 01:15, 7 May 2022 (UTC)


 * @Ceoil
 * None of the modern sources nor the newspapers from the 1800s make a claim as to why it was popular
 * This is not mentioned in the sources
 * expanded
 * added that he was a temperance movement person
 * expanded
 * expanded
 * -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 14:01, 9 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Happy with overall FAC feedback work and expansions. Support with non-deal breaking suggestions:
 * Is "Monks and Their Decline in 1898" a book or a pamphlet - the lead indicates that it was solely published to stop the beer, but it had a 88 pages, which indicates a diatribe
 * the monks continued to produce the drink for internal consumption - for their own consumption
 * where beer was brewed in abbeys - begs questions; was it from an earlier or contemporary recipe, how many abbeys, were they producing for "external" (maybe "selling" is better, as on 1st read of lead I thought international vs. domestic sale) production or just drinking it all themselves. Appreciate sources may be thin, if so ..."using a recipe used by a number of abbeys". Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

PMC
Claiming myself a spot, comments sometime this week. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Technically I'm still within my week. Here we go.


 * Lead
 * It feels unnecessary to call it an alcoholic drink, then call out the style of beer in sentence two. To me beer is a common enough concept that you don't have to explain it in an article about a type of beer. Unfortunately there aren't any comparable FAs to compare to, so it's possible I'm nuts and the granularity is necessary.
 * retooled the leade -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The beer was initially produced at the archabbey in 1856 feels redundant. The first sentence in para 1 already mentions the start date, and this restates that in more words without adding any additional information.
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Francesco Satolli, the Apostolic Delegate to the United States. He wrote to Archabbot Leander Schnerr asking for the brewing to be stopped. Something wonky has happened here. Also, when?
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * When did Zurcher write his book?
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * What's The New York Voice, and when did it decide it hated monks and beer? What was it accusing the abbey of anyway?
 * removed from the lede. Not that important -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * the monks continued to produce the drink for domestic consumption - Assuming you mean the monks kept making the beer to drink for themselves, the phrasing "domestic consumption" doesn't really work, as it most often refers to the consumption of goods in the country they were produced in.
 * switched to internal -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Background
 * I feel like the background section gets ahead of itself by describing Wimmer as the founder of the first Benedictine monastery in the United States but not mentioning that the St Vincent was that monastery. It oddly implies that there was another one first.
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The dates in the background section don't match the lead. The lead says brewing started in 1856 and that Pius IX allowed for commercial sale in 1858. The background section says that they were brewing by 1849 and got permission for production and sale in 1852.
 * fixed the lead. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure the second paragraph belongs in the Background section, as it's a description of the beer and some critical response to it. Actually, I wonder if background/early years aren't better off merged into one section.
 * I have never found a good place to put this information. Back to its own section, I guess -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Early years
 * This section says the brewery was built in 1856, but the previous section seems to say there already was a brewery. Please clarify, unless I've misread something.
 * The 1849 brewery was in Indiana, PA and did not produce St Vincent Beer. Sources skip over what happened to that brewery. I retooled the sentence -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * was publicly condemned form - I assume that's supposed to be "from the movement", but "by the movement" would be more correct, I think
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Link to Temperance movement in the United States?
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "more mild" - milder
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "who sell alcohol" - I think it should be "who sold alcohol", or maybe "who were selling"
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Beer Fuss and Decline
 * When did The Voice release their article, and do we know what it claimed?
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The monks, however, continued I'm not sure "however" is necessary, although it's also not a hill I'll die on if you like it as a matter of style.
 * removed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The following year the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution was ratified making it illegal to produce alcoholic drinks and starting Prohibition. This sentence is a bit awkwardly worded. Prohibition in itself is the ban on producing alcohol, so it feels redundant to say it again. Perhaps "and beginning the Prohibition era"?
 * removed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This is nitpicky, but this sentence "Officially, the brewery building was used for storage for the farm," should probably have a clarifying word like "Thereafter" or "Subsequently" to make it obvious that that was only after Prohibition came in
 * fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "Decline" says the ruins were demolished during the restoration of the gristmill; the lead says during the "removal of the gristmill".
 * Fixed leade -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

If you disagree with any suggestions, no problem, I'm open to discussion. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 02:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * All fixes look good, I am happy to support this nomination on prose. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Source review from Vami
Verdict: Pass. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  20:00, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Spot-checks:
 * Citation [20] would more accurately draw from pages 129 and 130.
 * Citation [3] checks out but is needlessly repeated at This upset O'Connor who refused to grant the community that Wimmer founded status as a priory.[3] Wimmer appealed O'Connor's refusal to Pope Pius IX during a trip to Rome, but was denied.[3]
 * Citation [13] checks out.

X – ♠Vami _IV†♠  20:00, 9 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Fixed! -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 20:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Supports by Lee Vilenski
I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.


 * Lede
 * Do we need to have "dark" in the lede sentence? Or can we simply reword to avoid the two links next to each other.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Removed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The theologian and professor Francesco Satolli, then the Apostolic Delegate to the United States, wrote to Archabbot Leander Schnerr asking for the brewing to be stopped in 1895. - why?  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The TL;DR version is explained by the previous sentence: "It's popularity and widespread availability brought the monastery to the attention of the Catholic temperance movement." -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Monks and Their Decline- presumably this is a book?  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Every source calls it a pamphlet, but it is https://archive.org/details/monksandtheirde00zurcgoog/ 90 pages long] -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Is skewering the right word?  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Changed to the more common criticizing -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Prose
 * "providing that every disorder is avoided".[1][3 - what does this mean?  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * first Saint Vincent Beer was first - poorly worded.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I used to have an easter egg link to alcoholism here, but it was removed per Ceoil's review -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The article suggests but doesn't state that they got written permission.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I assume it was written since it came from a pope who never visted the US. The sources don't really discribe the permission much more -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * the golden age of Saint Vincent Beer, which lasted through 1888. - link seems a bit eastereggy to me, and who stated it's a "Golden Age".  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lamendola, Oetgen, and Klein all mention a golden age in their long-form sources -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You give a currency exchange for $3 but not $14.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Added a second inflation template -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Have we got a link for "ice house".  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Linked -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note 2 seems misplaced, considering the sentence doesn't mention any naming.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Moved -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * just four and a half year, - only  Lee Vilenski  (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lee, are you satisfied with responses to your comments? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ian Rose: in case you miss it -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 10:28, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude

 * "It's popularity" => "Its popularity"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "As part of a media campaing" => "As part of a media campaign"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "In 1856, the first Saint Vincent Beer was first manufactured" - repetition of "first" doesn't sound great
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "established a brewery in small log building" => "established a brewery in a small log building"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "next to the archabbey's gristmill" - no need to relink the archabbey here
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "The brewery buildings sat in what is now the parking lot for the gristmill" - this caption is a complete sentence so needs a full stop
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "The Archabbey" - earlier when not using the full name you wrote "the archabbey". Be consistent in your capitalisation
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "At the time, the Catholic Church working" => "At the time, the Catholic Church was working"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "in place for just four and a half year" => "in place for just four and a half years"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "asking him end the archabbey" => "asking him to end the archabbey"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "When sold, it was sold it limited quantities" => "When sold, it was sold in limited quantities"
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "Neither contemporary nor cotemporaneous sources mention what became of this earlier brewery" - this also needs a full stop
 * Fixed -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That's what I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @ChrisTheDude & Lee Vilenski: I responded to your comments -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 12:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:12, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)