Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Saline Valley salt tram/archive1

Saline Valley salt tram

 * Nominator(s): ♠Vami  _IV†♠  05:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a defunct aerial tramway that operated in the mountainous desert of south-eastern California at various times in the 20th century. Whenever it was operating, it was the steepest tramway in the whole country. It was created by Possibly as a Draft in July 2021 and then entered mainspace that December, since then it has become a Good Article. I believe it now worthy of the bronze star. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  05:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Image review pass per GAN (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Support by CactiStaccingCrane (talk)
Will definitely comment :) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, after reading Notability, I have some concerns about the topic's warrant of an article. The sourcing are definitely good, but I think that individual contents these listings at Death Valley to National Register of Historic Places listings in Death Valley National Park would be more appropriate. I would let FAC coordinators to decide whether this is a good idea or not. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:24, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it's notable. NRHP structures are generally held to meet WP:GEOFEAT, and I'd say DeDecker and the NRHP nomination form certainly count towards notability.  Unrau contains significant coverage, as well. I would say there's also definitely a case for a separate article, as extended content on this subject would be WP:UNDUE at the NRHP list article. Hog Farm Talk 05:32, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks! I will take a look at the article and do the usual FAC-picking. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Prose
( meant deletion, [brackets] meant appending)

--- --- --- --- --- --- Overall, I like the article! It is an interesting read. I would give a pass on the prose once everything is done. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:29, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The Saline Valley salt tram was an electric aerial tramway located in Inyo County, California. It was constructed from 1911 to 1913 to carry salt from the Saline Valley over the Inyo Mountains to a terminus northeast of Keeler, California in the Owens Valley. —— redundant phrasing of "tram", better: "The Saline Valley salt tram was located in Inyo County, California and constructed from 1911 to 1913. The electric aerial tramway carried salt from the Saline Valley, over the Inyo Mountains, and end at northeast of Keeler, California in the Owens Valley."
 * Amendment adopted, with modification. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * its construction and operation was [too] expensive  [and cause the company to go bankrupt]. —— The previous wording was very muddy
 * I have instead tweaked the relevant section of the article body. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [The] salt mining operation and tram were [then?] leased to the Owens Valley Salt Company until it[s] bankrupt[cy] in 1918. —— Better to say "the" than "it", as "it" could mean either the company, the tram's construction, and the tram itself
 * Good point. Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [Between then and 1929, t]he Sierra Salt Company repaired and upgraded [the system.] —— Obviously you cannot use the tram when it is repaired
 * Rewrote the paragraph this was highlighted from. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [In 1935, t]he Sierra Salt Company went bankrupt in 1935, marking [its] permanent closure . —— Unnecessary repetition of "salt tram" in prior sentences
 * Rewrote the paragraph this was highlighted from. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It was [designated at] the National Register of Historic Places on December 31, 1974. —— "placed" won't do justice to this honor
 * Replaced "placed on" with "included in". – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [I]n 1864, a farmer residing in the nearby Owens Valley [gathered] salt from a 12-square-mile (31 km2) deposit at the southeastern end of the [Saline Valley]. —— It is redundant to basically say "This is the beginning" at the article's first sentence.
 * I somewhat agree. I have adopted the second suggested amendment. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The farmer sold the [99% pure] salt to [his neighbour] —— "Which had a purity of 99%" break up the prose
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Located between the Panamint and Inyo Mountains, access to the Saline Valley was difficult [as the farmer found out] —— redundant, the next sentence said precisely that
 * Amendment adopted without "as the farmer found out". – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [Nearly four decades later, i]n 1902, the Conn and Trudo Borax Company established a mine in the Saline Valley —— It's good to give the reader some sort of length between long breaks of time
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [T]he SVSC mined the valley's salt at a small scale from 1903 until [the company's president L.] Bourland died in 1905. —— Too much emphasis on a random businessman
 * Fair; amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thereafter, Smith took over the company and began seeking investors  to enlarge the SVSC's operations. —— Redundant phrasings
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In 1907, the SVSC began [investigating transportation to and from] the [v]alley —— I assumed that they do have access to the mine, but they want to build a proper system to transport salt. If what the source meant that they study possible transportation methods but then quit, then this sentence need to rephrase in another way. Nevermind, but this sentence works best if being placed on the next paragraph
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [They considered] railroad and a pipeline but were ruled out because of [their high] cost and [low] practicality —— Clarify the reason why they don't build other alternatives to a tram
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Instead, the SVSC opted for an aerial tramway[,] crossing the Inyo Mountains to reach a processing plant on Owens Lake. —— Add a comma to separate run-ons
 * Substituted "that would cross" in place of ", crossing". – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [F]rom 1908 to July 1911[, the company survey the terrain] —— Date should go at the front of the sentence, unless it is not important at all. Also, this would make the information less confusing.
 * Amendment adopted and sentence merged with the following sentence. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Work began the following month and was complicated by the rough terrain . —— Way  redundant. We know these information implicitly by default.
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [W]orkers [lived inside tents] while the [site's temperature might rise up to] 100 °F (38 °C)  —— No real need for passive voice here. Workers aren't forced to live in tents, it's that there is no option to live in the first place.
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [T]o transport materials, a road on the [W]estern slope[was] expanded and a team of eight horses [were] employed for pulling supplies. —— Redundancy and correct grammar
 * Amendment adopted with modifications. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * lasted until July 1913 and was expensive for the SVSC. —— Tone not encyclopedic
 * Relevant section rewritten. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In 1915, [the company] leased the Saline Valley [salt mining and tram] to the Owens Valley Salt Company until [the leasee company] going bankrupt in 1918 —— Always help to clarify broad, generic words and delete redundancies
 * Relevant section rewritten. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In 1935, the [company] went bankrupt —— repetition
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It was reopened briefly for the last time in 1954. —— The phrase break the well-crafted prose in prior sentences
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The tramway [was] 13.4 miles (21.6 km) [long], which was divided into five sections ranging in from 0.75 miles (1.21 km) to 4 miles (6.4 km). —— If miles aren't the indication of length, then what else?
 * Excellent question - amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Each of these sections was managed by [a] control station. —— Of course that it is controlled section's control station, no need to say that it is owned by the sections
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In addition[,] [there] were 34 structures for maintaining tension [of] the line. —— Prior phrasing is a huge run-on
 * Amendment mostly adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * [From 1913 to 1954], the route was the steepest of any aerial tram in the United States —— Specify exact time rather than forcing the reader to do math gymnastics
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The line from the Saline Valley [rose 7,600 feet (2,300 m)] —— Wrong order
 * I disagree and believe you have misread the sentence. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * which weighed 800 pounds (360 kg) [when empty] and [could] held up to 700 pounds (320 kg) of salt —— Missing words
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The first [cable] for loaded buckets was 1.125 inches (28.6 mm) thick [and] the second [cable] for empty buckets was 0.875 inches (22.2 mm) thick —— Comma break prose
 * Amendment not adopted beyond adding the word "cable" after "first". The commas are used correctly. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Power was supplied by an 75 horsepower (56 kW) Westinghouse electric engine at each control station[, which was] powered by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power —— run-on
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * to [do] maintenance —— Shorter is better, also, we do implicitly know that they are there to maintenance the tramway
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * On October 31, 1973, the Bureau of Land Management office nominated [the Saline Valley salt tram] for inclusion —— We know that the Bureau of Land Management office is responsible for the tram, therefore the agency can nominate it in the first place
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The nomination was received on October 16, 1974 and approved on December 31, 1974 —— Comma break the prose
 * Amendment mostly adopted; use of commas is correct (MOS:DATECOMMA). – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:09, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The tram was [included] a historic structure by the state of California on the same date —— "included" is better as there is already a list of California historical structure
 * Amendment adopted, with modification. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Media and other stuff

 * I found these images which can be useful: File:Cart loads of salt arriving at the salt works, Saline Valley Salt Tram, 1916.jpg, File:Twelve Mule Team pulling salt works construction skid, 1912.jpg, File:Salt tram terminal, 1912.jpg, File:Saline Valley salt tramway in operation in the early 1900s.jpg, File:Workers riding on the first gondola of salt, Saline Valley Salt Tram, 1913.jpg. The article is missing out on a lot of those CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Those used to be in the article as a gallery, but their copyright status is dubious and thus they were removed from the article. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  07:44, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Why? They are all in the public domain, considering that they were taken before 1927 for sure (which is way after the construction of the tram). CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, even though the author claimed fair use, it isn't anymore. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:48, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We don't know for sure if the images were taken before 1927, thus we can't use them in the article. See Buidhe's image review for the GAN. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  08:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, alright, that's makes sense. Good luck on your FAC! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 08:16, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In most cases, it's the publication date, not the creation date, that counts for the copyright expiration. For example, a photograph taken in 1890 and first published in 1950 can still be copyrighted today (assuming that certain formalities were observed) (t &#183; c)  buidhe  08:19, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Coordinate is way too detailed, see WP:COORDPREC for help
 * potential ramblings

Overall, I support the article on all criteria except 1b, 1c, 1f, and 3 at what is a featured article. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude

 * "The electric aerial tramway was constructed [...] and carried salt [...] and end at northeast of Keeler, California" - the last of the verbs is randomly plural (or just spelt incorrectly)
 * Edit scar, fixed now. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "its construction and operation was" => "its construction and operation were"
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "The farmer sold the 99% pure salt, to other settlers" - no reason for that comma
 * Edit scar, removed. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "The company mined the valley's salt at a small scale" => "The company mined the valley's salt on a small scale"
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "Power was supplied by an 75 horsepower" => "Power was supplied by a 75 horsepower"
 * Oops. Fixed. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:44, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
I'll review this, but first you might take at look at this and this to see if you can incorporate any of the material in the article. The first clipping is just a short reference at the end of the article, but it's interesting because as far as I can tell it's not included in the history as you give it. The other one includes pictures, but they may be too poor to use. Both articles are out of copyright in case you did want to use the pictures. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Whoa, good finds! I've plugged in the second of those to have the final cost of the tram's construction in the article. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  19:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also this, which seems like it must be the same tram, though I'm not sure if I could prove it to the extent of using this in the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:33, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And searching newspapers.com for "Saline Valley Salt Company" finds a lot more; see this for example; I got 66 hits, though just looking at the first page, that's the only one that looks useful. Searching for "Owens Valley Salt Company" finds more:, , , . Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 12:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * A quick look in Google Books finds this, which has a wonderful picture of the first day of operation. Wehrey cites the Eastern California Museum and other collections; it might be worth contacting both Wehrey and the museum to see what images exist under what copyrights -- there might be free images available. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 12:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That does indeed seem like it'd be the same tram, but I do not remember the name "Combs" from any of my research. Indeed, our tram was built by the Trenton Iron Company, a subsidiary of US Steel. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  19:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll come back to this tomorrow, but would you mind if I tried contacting Wehrey and the museum? I'd like to see if we can find some additional material, and that book convinces me there is more sourcing out there if we can find it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 02:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. We've got some additional photos already on Commons from the early 19th century that we can't use at the moment because we don't know the date of publishing. It would be fantastic to know definitively if they were put out there before 1927. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  15:30, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I emailed the museum; I'll let you know when I hear from them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:47, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

, I am starting to think you should withdraw this and work on getting more sources; I think the article can be expanded. There's a book partly visible on Google Books titled Salt to Summit by Daniel Arnold in which he tells the story of the tram's construction, though I can only see part of it. Similarly George Turner's Slim Rails Through the Sand seems to have a page or two about the tram. I've emailed the Eastern California Museum about the image in Wehrey's book but haven't heard back. I think we could probably get another picture of the current state of the tram or one of its surviving trestles. There's a 32-page article about the construction of the tram in the April 1917 proceedings of the American Society of Civil Engineers called "An Aerial Tramway for the Saline Valley Salt Company, Inyo County, California", by F.C. Carstarphen, including several photos. Another Arcadia Press book, Lone Pine, by Christopher Langley, contains more pictures of the tramway, noted as from the Bruce Branson collection; I am emailing him to see if he has more resources or can provide copyright information. That's all in addition to the links above. I know articles can be expanded while at FAC, but I think it would be best to take more time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Salt to Summit is an autobiography and the sources already used more ably and comprehensively cover the construction, operation, route, and specifications of the tramway; I doubt Slim Rails Through the Sand has anything more to add about the train; I didn't want to use the 1917 Proceedings because it was so close in time and had information already in the sources I was using or was superfluous, like (IIRC) how much Owens Valley Salt was paying for the lease. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  01:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear you looked at these already. The Carstarphen has an elevation profile that I think could be used, on p. 530, and quite a few details about the construction, and some pretty good pictures of the tram in operation.  There are a lot of engineering details that don't need to be in the article, but "The first bucket of salt arrived at the discharge terminal on July 2d, 1913, and was the occasion for a great demonstration" seems like we could use it to quote the exact date of start of operations.  There's a discussion of the need to design a completely new type of cable grip (pp. 551-552)  At the bottom of p. 553 there's a discussion of the risk of too-high tension on sharply rising sections of the line which is a good insight into the kind of engineering problems they encountered.  There's a discussion of the bucket design and what the constraints were.  Is it possible in the proceedings you were reading the section by Carstarphen responding to letters about the article?  That section comes up first in the Google search, and it does talk about pricing, so I think you may not have seen Carstarphen's original article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 02:03, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI an elevation profile, depending on exactly how it's done, is likely PD-chart and OK to upload. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Just heard back from the Eastern California Museum, and unfortunately they have no other information about prior publication of that picture, so we can't use it. However, they did link me to two local papers that are apparently not in newspapers.com, and they seem to have relevant hits when I search for the salt tram: the Inyo Independent and the Big Pine Citizen. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

, just checking in -- are you planning to use any of the Carstarphen article? I listed a few points I think could be used above. I saw you did use one of the articles I found. I haven't gone through the other articles I linked to to see what is useful, but would be glad to do that and list the results here if you haven't gone through them yourself. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:21, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm back from a trip to the local university library (for another article); I'll read and likely use the 1917 article tonight. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  23:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Reading now. How best should those images be extracted? – ♠Vami _IV†♠  03:55, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Done, pending further suggestions. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  05:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Looking through the additions from Carstarphen, here are some more points I think are worth mentioning. I have not looked through the various newspaper articles to see what could be used there, but I will try to get to that tonight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Carstarphen says a survey was begun in April 1911, but it appears Unrau says surveys were going on before that? I don't know if Unrau makes it clear, but it would appear that the earlier surveys were not specifically to plan a tramway, but were to look into the possibility of a pipeline or railway, since those had not been ruled out.  So I think we can use Carstarphen to say when the survey that resulted in the tramway was started.
 * Carstarphen and DeDecker contradict this reading; Carstarphen says on page 257, "Surveys had demonstrated the impracticality of building a railroad into the [Saline] valley." I have however expanded on the surveying as Carstarphen allows. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  14:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The location was selected in July 1911.
 * Added. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  04:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Searching for "Trenton-Bleichert" finds a couple of books -- 1914 and 1929 -- by American Steel and Wire about the construction of aerial tramways. The 1914 one can be read here, and there are some excellent pictures of other tramways and components; one or two could be used as representative.  The 1929 one is more likely to have pictures of the Saline Valley tramway but I can't find online access -- it would have to be requested through WP:RX.
 * The Trenton-Bleichert thing struck me as too esoteric to include. I welcome any future contributors to our coverage of aerial tramways to contradict me and add on to the article in the future, though, if RSs provide. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  06:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In the section on design you mention the length of each section of the tramway. Carstarphen makes the point that the sections were chosen to make the height differential on each section the same, and that this was important for engineering reasons.
 * The line was planned to pass through a saddle in the range with a height of 8500 ft.
 * Any reason not to use the map and the elevation diagram?
 * I don't want any WP:SANDWICHing, or a gallery, or to have a bad, low-quality clipping for Commons. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  14:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The end of the tramway was adjacent to a spur of the Southern Pacific. Later (p.544) Carstarphen says the selection of the discharge point was a major cause of delay and led to additional cost, and gives details.  This seems significant enough to describe in the article.
 * Added. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  14:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The description of the difficulty of the survey on p. 532, including the bit about taking days to find paths out of canyons, seems like a nice bit of colour to add to the mention of the survey.
 * Added; it is indeed nice flavor for the difficulty of the terrain. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  04:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We say a road was extended on the west slopes and a temporary tram put in on the east for transporting materials; Carstarphen says the temporary tram was put in because it was impossible to build a road, and I think that's worth mentioning.
 * Done. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  06:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Heavy equipment was brought in by a wagon road from Big Pine, and moved further by a go-devil which he describes; I think this is interesting enough to mention, at least briefly, and to link to go-devil.
 * I left this out in the first writing process, and continue to, for approachability; for those so inclined to learn more, the sources (Unrau, DeDecker, and Carstarphen) that discuss – and quite literally! – the nuts and bolts of the tram are available online. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  06:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Can we use any of the images? The quality is not great but they are out of copyright and are images of this specific tramway; I think we should try to find something we can use.
 * Yes. I've been thinking about asking someone to remake them or do it myself, but I lack space in the article to display them. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  14:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion of the problems caused by shipping wet salt, which led to the buckets being over the specified weight (pp. 544-549)
 * You mention the need for new grips, but I think a little more detail could be justified -- the fact that two lines were necessary because one line would have had to be so large it would have been uneconomical, and then the fact that having two ropes led to problems with the grips. You might also name the grips "Universal Wico grips".  Searching for information on those led me to the Salt Tram blog which is no doubt not reliable but I think it would be worth contacting the blogger to see if we can get pictures or any leads to more sources.
 * The discussion of tension at the bottom of p. 553 seems worth mentioning to me as an example of a place in the tramway where particular care had to be taken in the design.
 * In the last few pages there are some minor operational details that might be worth mentioning -- the problems caused by high winds, the installation of telephones along the tramway, the crew complement (which I think you have covered already), and the loading mechanism (p. 557). I also like the mention of the crew using it to cross the mountains in preference to going around on horseback!
 * And there's a Facebook group for the tram here which announces they have thousands of photos of the tram; again I'd suggest asking about ones we might use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Apologies. With the invasion of Ukraine, it will take me a while to address all of this. I am now considering withdrawing the nomination. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  19:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No hurry, but if you are busy, that might be best. I'd be happy to give you a pre-FAC review before you bring it back, if you like. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 20:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * , this is looking close to done. If you need a little extra time, consider asking the coordinators rather than withdrawing it. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I'm finished; I have chosen to withhold more engineering details at this moment because I judge them minutiae. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  19:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * OK -- I'll take another look, today if I get time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I am not going to oppose or support. If I were writing this article I would include more of the engineering details but I think it's a judgement call and I see no reason to oppose because of that. , the only remaining issue I can see is that your cites to Carstarphen are to pages in the 228-244 range, but the cited source has pages in the 525-558 range. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know how I didn't notice that. Fixed now. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  23:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.


 * Is there a reason why Unrau doesn't have an identifier? (OCLC = 38246219)
 * No; I'm just not familiar with OCLC. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Similarly Norwood etc. (OCLC = 7547509) And why are only two of the five authors given?
 * There are only two authors credited on the Google Books entry and on the first page of the document. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I see three names on the front cover and a, possibly optional, collaborator on the title page.


 * Cite 19 - Saline Valley Salt Tram Historic Structure - is a nomination. Where in this source does it cover "then approved on December 31, 1974" and "The tram was designated a historic structure by the state of California on the same date"?
 * The cited NRHP document is signed and dated by the Keeper of the Register, and then stamped with that dated and the word "ACCEPTED". The reference for the California designation is not a nomination and also has the date it received its California designation. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Then could you point me to at least the page where it indicates the date it received its designation? And is there no reliable secondary source which covers this? Primary sources should only be used at FAC when secondaries aren't available - which seems improbable in this case.
 * Done. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  20:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)


 * "but its construction and operation were ruinously expensive"> Perhaps 'but its construction and operation costs were ruinously expensive'?
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "the tram was repossessed by the Trenton Iron Company, which sold it to the Sierra Salt Company in 1925. The Sierra Salt Company purchased the tram in 1928". Am I missing something, or is there a contradiction there?
 * Ah, edit scar. Corrected now. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "the journey from the Owens". This may just be me, but what are/is "the Owens"?
 * Owens Valley. Added "Valley" following "Owens". – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "The company mined the valley's salt on a small scale". Which company?
 * The SVSC. Replaced "company" here with "SVSC" to underscore this. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "Smith took over the company". What is the difference between Smith organising the company and him taking it over?
 * Good question. I've added "direction of" to the sentence. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "In 1907, the SVSC began investigating transportation to and from the valley." I assume that even prior to this there had been some means of transporting salt from the minehead?
 * Yup; that laborious, 12-mile-but-two-day trip I start #Background with. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "because of high cost and low practicality". Suggest adding 'of these options'.
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "then hired the Trenton Iron Company to build the tramway on August 14, 1911" → 'then on August 14, 1911, hired the Trenton Iron Company to build the tramway'.
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "Workers lived out of tents". This is, I assume, a USEng phrase. Maybe 'Workers lived in tents'?
 * VAMIEng certainly; amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * a road on the western slopes was expanded". Expanded or extended?
 * Extended; word changed to match. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "$6.94 million to $13.9 million, adjusted for inflation". At what date?
 * The template in use for displaying inflation does not have a Current Year (like 2019–22) because I don't want those figures to go out of date. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The inflation calculator currently only runs up to 2020. I have added a template to reflect this. As new data becomes available the inflation calculator will use it, and the template I have added will automatically updayte accordingly. Let me know if you have an issue with this. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  20:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)


 * "until the latter went bankrupt in 1918." Suggest 'until it went bankrupt in 1918.'
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "repossessed by the Trenton Iron Company." So had this company owned it previously?
 * I have no idea what specifically happened here. From newspaper clippings I've read, the Trenton Iron Company sued in 1917 to repossess the tram for failure by the SVSC to pay for an (iirc) construction-related debt, but they got that worked out. I would then assume that something like that happened here, but Trennert is not specific. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok. Can I suggest avoiding "repossessed" then? The "re" bit makes it seem that it was coming back into its possession. Maybe "taken over"?
 * Done. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  20:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "It was reopened briefly for the last time in 1954." Are the dates of the start and end of operations known? Is the company which operated it known?
 * No. Norwood & Bull do not have much to say about this venture except that that venture began and ended within 1954. The only names associated with it are the three guys behind it. I've deleted this venture from the article since it has nothing to do with the tram itself now (along with the subsequent mention of the year 1954 - I don't know why I wrote 1954 in #Design rather than 1935). – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "From 1913 to 1954, the route was the steepest of any aerial tram in the United States". Which tram took over the title in 1954? (Coincidentally in the same year the Saline Valley tram ceased operation.)
 * I have no idea. I have also corrected the closing year mentioned there, as the tram itself was not put back into service in 1954. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "thus, 20 tons of salt could be moved in an hour." I don't think "thus" is appropriate here. Suggest deleting and starting a new sentence.
 * Amendment adopted. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Just the bolded comment above to go. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It is done. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  23:02, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Source review - pass
All the sources are reliable, just a few things. If it's all resolved I'll give it a pass. ** Done, except that there is no article for The Press-Tribune I cited. We do not have an article for that newspaper.q – ♠Vami _IV†♠  00:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC) ** Done. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  00:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Does there need to be a subsection on Books and articles? I'm aware it's personal preference, but there's not much sources to warrant division.
 * I guess not. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  00:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The =work, =publisher, and =via in refs 23 and 24 must be linked for consistency with the others.
 * In the first source in the "Sources" section, "pdf" must be capitalized.
 * Have to disclose that I've added archives and accessdates on most of the refs; made the GBook links usurped since they're unusable. However, the first source in the "Sources" section still has no acc-date.

Comments Support

 * Support. Nice work! I kinda expected it to be a controversial FAC with only 13K bytes, but it's a good one.  Gerald WL  01:09, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Motion to close
Motion to close as Promote. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  10:01, 12 March 2022 (UTC) (t &#183; c)  buidhe  10:07, 12 March 2022 (UTC)