Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Selena

Selena
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Re self-nom This article barely failed it's FAC the first time around, and I'm trying again. Since it failed it went though a copyedit, and reached GA status. I would be around for any concerns you may have. Thanks Secret wat's sup 18:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[table snipped from this FAC page] CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 23:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - very accurate article; many wikipedians (especially latino music fans) would find the article interesting and relevant; well cited and organized; front page material. --GoOdCoNtEnT 20:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support My only comments are, with all that stuff about her father steering her career and controlling her love life, I wondered if the sources had anything to say as to whether he was a domineering personality, sometimes to Selena's dismay. Also, a couple paragraphs starting with "Selena released her next album..." seemed a little tedious/repetative to me, although I couldn't think of a way to reword them without making them passive sentences.  About.com is referenced, although given that website copies a lot from Wikipedia itself, I wouldn't think of it as the greatest source.  Other than that, good job. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 21:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I would object based on the sources, but they can probably be fixed. Very good start, worthy of consideration.  The first thing I look at is references, and they cause a problem for me.  I should not have to click on a link to see what the reference is.  Can you please convert them to a bibliographic style, and use a consistent style?  For example, your first reference should be (depending on what reference style you choose) something like, Mitchell, Rick.  "Selena".  Houston Chronicle, 05/21/95 (with the link to the article as "Selena"). The idea is, if the Chronicle takes down the link, I should still be able to find the article.  The problem is created by the use of cite web, when you are really citing a newspaper.  I can't tell if most of your references are news media primary sources, or websites put up by fans.  I have to click on each one to evaluate their reliability, and would prefer to see what kinds of sources you used without having to click on each one.  For example, when I click on the reference for Selena and Coca-cola, I find what appears to be a fan website, which is not a reliable source.  If Selena was a spokesperson for Coca-Cola, there must be a reliable source mention of it somewhere.  The mention (above) of about.com as a source is a concern, as every article I've ever encountered on about.com had accuracy problems.  I'll take another look if you'll improve the references.  Sandy 22:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok I replaced the Coke ref with a The Handbook of Texas ref, I don't know how to convert them to a bibliographic style though, do you still leave the link, also I didn't see any refs from about.com. Finding credible refs online is very hard and I'm trying my best to look. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want, I can do a couple for you as a sample. Let me know. I do them manually because I *really* dislike citeweb (it doesn't work well for medical articles), so let me know if you want me to tackle them. I'm sorry to have parroted the comment from above regarding about.com, if there is no about.com reference.  Hmmm??? Sandy 23:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Working my way through the references, mystery solved. I think the editor above meant answers.com rather than about.com.  Answers.com is a mirror of Wiki, so is circular reasoning as a source.  Sandy 00:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I think the discography section could benefit from a table, similar to the one in the Alison Krauss article. Cheers, -- darkliight [&pi;alk] 22:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's something I don't know how do to, several music FAs don't have them though like Celine Dion. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be a simple matter of copying from Alison Krauss' article and changing the text accordingly. See:

Thank you Jaranda wat's sup 23:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I placed it but the table came out too big I think. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 Object —2a. Here are examples from the top that indicate that a thorough copy-edit throughout is required.
 * "Born the youngest child of a Mexican immigrant couple,..."—Spot the redundant word.
 * "four number one Spanish hits"—hyphen required.
 * The link As of June 2006 takes me to stuff about the German intelligence agency, Iran, and Cape Town. Delink it.
 * "The family soon went bankrupt, and they were evicted from their home." Spot the redundant word.
 * "Taking all their musical equipment and an old bus,..."—"In" would be better than "and".
 * "There they performed whenever they could; at street corners, weddings, quinceañeras, and fairs." No, the semicolon should be a ... (you tell me). Tony 00:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok fixed all, mostly edits a annon user made not long ago, I don't know how to use an hyphen well so I might have done it wrong thanks Jaranda wat's sup 00:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The examples were evidence that the whole text needs editing. Can you network on WP to find people who are relatively unfamiliar with the text to improve it? Tony 00:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing to look at the text, but after the article is thoroughly referenced. For now, there are still three personal or fan websites as references, so I have to object based on prose and referencing.  Sandy 03:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Objection removed, article is referenced and prose has been addressed. Sandy 12:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok I fixed it all. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 04:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Struck references above as completed: all of the references are now to reliable sources, but you should check that every statement in the article is referenced before we work on the copyedit.  Sandy 05:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Taking a second look, there are still numerous statements that aren't referenced. A few examples from early on in the article (I didn't go through the entire article):
 * She continued her education on the road; at age seventeen she earned a high school diploma from The American School of Correspondence in Chicago and was accepted at Louisiana State University. 
 * They initially performed at the Quintanilla family's restaurant, "Papagallos," but the restaurant failed shortly afterwards.
 * I also saw this in the lead, so wonder about the copy edit that was done: her 1994 album Amor Prohibido produced four number one Spanish' hits. Sandy 19:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Alot of the info comes from the same refs, might be a bit of an overkill. As for the sentence, that was when I tried to fix Tony1 objection, but as I really never used an hyphen before. Jaranda wat's sup 19:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I ref the family resturant one, but I don't agree with every sentence has to have a ref part, as it's not a contverisal article, and would be an overkill to add the same refs, people just can read the refs. Thabks Jaranda wat's sup 05:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work, Jaranda, but there's still the need to engage collaborators in the task. Here are examples why, which are from the first part I inspected this time, at random—the opening of the "Legacy" section.
 * "In fact, the Guinness Book of World Records, in 2003 (she had previously graced the book's pages as the "most dominating artist"),..."—Stop-start structure; remove "In fact" to start with, since it adds nothing; perhaps replace it with "In 2003,".
 * "López was nominated for a Golden Globe award for Best Actress."—Do you mean for her role in that film?
 * "Over 12,000 people tried out for a role in the film.[17] This film stirred some controversy in the Mexican-American community since López is Puerto Rican and was playing the role of a singer who was of Mexican descent." To qualify as "compelling, even brilliant" prose, it might be something like this: "More than 12,000 people auditioned for a role in Selena.[17] The film stirred controversy in the Mexican-American community, since López is Puerto Rican and played the role of a singer of Mexican descent." And just why that community was upset is not quite clear.

Someone unfamiliar with the text needs to sift through it to make it really good. Nothing less is sufficient. Tony 13:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok User:Hoopydink did a decent copyedit, even though I had to revert like half of it, but most was useful. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 01:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, I'd go through the text in order to help, but I think it's still rather incomplete and not quite ready for a thorough going over. Jaranda, I know the woman is idolized, but is there *no* criticism of her anywhere?  With bios such as hers, you have to carefully watch that the article doesn't veer into POV fan worship.  A little more content addition, and I'll help with the copy edit.  Sandy 14:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a major problem, all the sites I went to has no crticism of her, maybe some older newspapers and magazines have them but they are not in the web, also her career was cut short by the murder before she managed to reach the U.S english market, limiting the critism there. I would look but it will be hard to find. Jaranda wat's sup 16:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Nothing that I can't find that is not blogs etc Jaranda wat's sup 22:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok I really need some help in getting older newspapers and magazines. I just removed an unsourced paragraph. Finding this stuff is hard to find in the internet that is not a fan site, as they don't really archive it and when they do, you have to pay like the New York Times articles, or like Billboard which clears it's articles after 3 months :(. Jaranda wat's sup 20:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose she sucks, talentless, not notable we already got FAs on crappy singers, we don't need no more 205.188.116.202 23:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Striking out obvious bad faith vote Jaranda wat's sup 00:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Best not to strike out bad-faith comment, but to append a rejoinder to it. Tony 01:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I think in the above one, I think it could be safely to cross it out.
 * Support once Tony's objections are met. Overall, there are tiny fixes that should be made, but I pointed these out to Jaranda already. Mostly, I asked him to get page numbers for the book references, like the Guiness world record reference. I like the article, good job. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh? What book references, and what Guiness reference?  Sandy 05:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the paragraph, I can't find it in a non-fan site any where, maybe if someone has a 1999 or 2003 Guiness Book of World Records laying around. Jaranda wat's sup 02:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I went to the main libary in Downtown Miami to look for more refrences, and I couldn't find anything. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 06:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral for now. I've been asked to copyedit the article a bit, so for now I'm going to stay neutral (I'll change my vote later). Right off the bat, however, a citation could be used for the sentence in the lead "She took the award for Female Vocalist of the Year in 1987 at the Tejano Music Awards which helped land her a recording contract with EMI." Not a citation that she won, but a citation that the award was a factor in her contract. If there isn't a citation for the connection both pieces of information still warrant inclusion, but as seperate sentences. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok I reworded the sentence. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 20:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support now. I agree with Tony, the article has undergone wonderful changes. Staxringold talkcontribs 04:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The prose is much, much better. Well done; objection removed. Tony 09:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Object . Four out of five citations checked as part of a citation spot check came up problematic, to varying degrees (results here). Please go through all the citations and make sure that the sources cited contain information directly supporting the statements in the article. --RobthTalk 18:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok fixed Jaranda wat's sup 20:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To be clear: I'm waiting for confirmation that all the citations, and not just the ones I checked, have been checked and fixed as necessary before I withdraw my objection. --RobthTalk 15:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Confirmation received on my talk page. Objection withdrawn. --RobthTalk 02:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I really want this closed soon, I already fixed all the objections and they are crossed out and I'm personally burning out over this fac and a few other reasons. Jaranda wat's sup 04:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaranda is going to take a Wikibreak, so I will watch over this FAC for him. Any concerns should be brought up to me, please. While I need a little bit to catch up on any issues, I will try and get back with yall ASAP. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Further comment on my object: It is better than it was, but if it's going to be promoted, I shouldn't be able to easily find things like this stubby little paragraph with imperfections:
 * "In October of 1995 a Houston jury convicted Saldívar of first degree murder and sentenced her to life in prison, with the possibility of parole in thirty years."—See WP:MOS about the "of" before a year. Comma after "1995" might be nice. AmEng goes easy on hyphens, but US editors would still insist on a hyphenated "first-degree" here.

And the next sentence I saw was:
 * "Meanwhile, "I Could Fall In Love," while ineligible for the Hot 100 at the time due to it not being released as a commercial single, did reach #12 on the Hot 100 Airplay chart and the top 10 on the Adult Contemporary Chart. To date, "Dreaming of You" has sold approximately four million copies in the USA." Meanwhile ... while. "Due to it not being released is awkward and, indeed, ungrammatical. What is the earthly point of writing "to date"? How will our readers know when you're referring to? Just remove it and update when necessary.

And:
 * "People magazine published a commemorative issue in Selena's honor, this being only the third occasion on which People had released such an issue."—The same grammatical issue, in the second clause. Tiresome repetition ("People" and "issue"). Reword the whole sentence.

And:
 * "Stern's comments, predictably, outraged the Hispanic community"—Remove "predictably" as POV (if it's not POV, it's unnecessary).

I'm not yet satisfied that this is FA-standard prose. I want to be able to pick out a few sentences without finding these types of problems. Tony 14:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Those above examples were fixed, and fixed a little bit in the last section. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I provided the examples at random to show that the entire text needs a final, good run-through if it's to be promoted. Just fixing the examples is not the point. Can you ask someone new to look at it? Do you have a list of good copy-editors? (I do, but I keep it to myself.) Tony 03:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Tony, what I will do is try and place a tag for copyeditors to come and look at it. After doing a bunch of FAC's, you know that copyediting is not my strongest point, and about 9 times out of 10, I get someone else to do it for me. I'll see what I can do myself, too. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, but you know what they're like (rather passive); try active networking with a few—flatter, engage, then ask.Tony 04:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And since grammar is pretty much the only sticking issue with this FAC, at least we should get this down right. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Some copyediting was done by Reimelt recently, the others sections looked fully copyedited to me and is ok. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 06:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)